Re:Songwriting Is Easy?
Monday, May 19 2008 @ 07:14 AM CDT

So I suppose what you are saying and I is mostly agreeing is that the complexity of a piece is what makes it harder to play...be it original or a cover...try and follow early Genesis tracks fer examples of differing time signatures.But I must put here something I flippantly said to a mate of mine in response to a comment he said about a guitarist's ( original~I forget who) piece of work he described as brilliant I said "well it should be,he wrote it,it should be easy for him".Because you can set your own benchmark to where you CAN play well,or try and stretch and sound a little dodgy.So you stay in your comfort zone,which if you are attempting to emulate a cover may well stretch you ....now I may have got the wrong end of the stick here,but if you are talking performance to an audience then I think that you have to adopt another set of principles.One being ,that if they are paying, then sorry, they have the right to hear what they have paid for....so it will depend on the venue,type of performance blah blah blah.

Only rarely have I performed so apart from the sheer terror and wondering why have I agreed to do this and I took refuge in some covers..or my version of someone elses song....and that opens another can of worms. When you start adapting and improvising on someones song is that not a type of originality there ...........oh I'm giving myself a head ache,so I don't about anyone brave or daft enuff to read this.I reiterate what I said earlier it should be enough to enjoy the fact that you can make music of some form or other.I don't know if people who can realise that they are so lucky or hard working or whatever....here, my Dad is a retired ElectricalEngineer,technical qualifications coming out of his ears and the stuff that he can read plans,charts etc equations and stuff..the other day he popped in as I was playing something or other from a piece of paper I had scribbled the words and chords on.He listened for a while,looked at the piece of paper in puzzlement and said "but where are you getting the music from" trying to explain where it was hidden in the chord sequence was like me trying to figure out his wiring diagrams........if you get it and you've got it be happy with it!!!

Re:Songwriting Is Easy?
Monday, May 19 2008 @ 07:37 AM CDT

Quote by: Jarvoid So I suppose what you are saying and I is mostly agreeing is that the complexity of a piece is what makes it harder to play...be it original or a cover...try and follow early Genesis tracks fer examples of differing time signatures.But I must put here something I flippantly said to a mate of mine in response to a comment he said about a guitarist's ( original~I forget who) piece of work he described as brilliant I said "well it should be,he wrote it,it should be easy for him".Because you can set your own benchmark to where you CAN play well,or try and stretch and sound a little dodgy.So you stay in your comfort zone,which if you are attempting to emulate a cover may well stretch you ....now I may have got the wrong end of the stick here,but if you are talking performance to an audience then I think that you have to adopt another set of principles.One being ,that if they are paying, then sorry, they have the right to hear what they have paid for....so it will depend on the venue,type of performance blah blah blah. Only rarely have I performed so apart from the sheer terror and wondering why have I agreed to do this and I took refuge in some covers..or my version of someone elses song....and that opens another can of worms. When you start adapting and improvising on someones song is that not a type of originality there ...........oh I'm giving myself a head ache,so I don't about anyone brave or daft enuff to read this.I reiterate what I said earlier it should be enough to enjoy the fact that you can make music of some form or other.I don't know if people who can realise that they are so lucky or hard working or whatever....here, my Dad is a retired ElectricalEngineer,technical qualifications coming out of his ears and the stuff that he can read plans,charts etc equations and stuff..the other day he popped in as I was playing something or other from a piece of paper I had scribbled the words and chords on.He listened for a while,looked at the piece of paper in puzzlement and said "but where are you getting the music from" trying to explain where it was hidden in the chord sequence was like me trying to figure out his wiring diagrams........if you get it and you've got it be happy with it!!!

Well said (and I loved Genesis, btw...what a tremendous band)

One point, though: as a guitarist who writes for solo guitar, I have to say that I can sometimes have a hard time playing quite a few pieces I've written. More than one reason for this, but, sticking to the technical, there are two main reasons:

1) I learned (both at music school and in the mountains/desert/living room/etc) to write what I hear, regardless of the difficulty of playing. Then I'd get it under my fingers. Add the "guitaristics" (which aren't always so easy, either) afterwards. Some pieces are simpler than others.

2) When I DO get a tune under my fingers, then I have to keep my technique up in order to replicate it. Not an easy task when you've got a life outside of music and/or are playing other instruments which require different techniques (electric vs. classical for instance).

Re:Songwriting Is Easy?
Monday, May 19 2008 @ 08:25 AM CDT

Au contraire.

I say, anybody can do covers, because the originals are available, and you can just play them over and over till you have all the parts disected, afterwhich, your ready to go.

The real work comes in creating something special. Something that will resonate with the listeners that makes them say, hey, that sounds really cool.

Getting the right match of lyrics and music is indeed a much bigger challenge, let alone something fresh and new.
Maybe your friend has low standards on what he thinks he can just throw out at an audience. Maybe he thinks you can just churn things out without thought. Sure, picking the same 3 chords and changing lyrics that's easy, like frying eggs.

The real work is coming up with something different and something flavorful that sticks.
There are so many variables in what can make a song click. ( melody, lyrics, rhythm and to which audience your directing your music towards).

No, I think your friend is way off here.

Re:Songwriting Is Easy?
Monday, May 19 2008 @ 08:27 AM CDT

Without getting into the argument of which is harder - I personally think that can be up to the individual, they are two distinct disciplines but you can learn alot of things you can pull on for your own tunes from learning covers .. and vice-versa .. if you write your own songs and know your strengths, you would I think have more success doing a 'good' cover which is not merely a copy but exhibits elements of your own songwriting style.

I would thus say for me it is always easier to do 'copy' (non-creatively) covers (within your own or bands playing/singing ability) and please crowds .. than it is to write your own song (be creative) that please crowds in the same way. Covers are already by nature known and generally popular.. you have that vast hurdle to cross with your own material.

The hybrid is to do a creative cover ... and that may well be as difficult as writing your own song I would say... as you are trying to 'make it your own' etc.

Re:Songwriting Is Easy?
Monday, May 19 2008 @ 09:02 AM CDT

Quote by: damiengh Au contraire. I say, anybody can do covers, because the originals are available, and you can just play them over and over till you have all the parts disected, afterwhich, your ready to go. The real work comes in creating something special. Something that will resonate with the listeners that makes them say, hey, that sounds really cool. Getting the right match of lyrics and music is indeed a much bigger challenge, let alone something fresh and new. Maybe your friend has low standards on what he thinks he can just throw out at an audience. Maybe he thinks you can just churn things out without thought. Sure, picking the same 3 chords and changing lyrics that's easy, like frying eggs. The real work is coming up with something different and something flavorful that sticks. There are so many variables in what can make a song click. ( melody, lyrics, rhythm and to which audience your directing your music towards). No, I think your friend is way off here.

I hear you, Damien...but I do think that the complexity of the tune comes into play here, too.

I don't think it's ncecessarily easier to have a big band play a rippin' "Take the A Train", completely in the pocket, or a trio to play a complete Beethoven String Quartet than for me to write and perform a basic 1-4-5 blues that my friend puts some tasty licks to.

But if it's that same "...A Train" number compared to a technically/interpretively difficult original solo piece, it's a different story. My opinion, at least. Waddya think?

Re:Songwriting Is Easy?
Monday, May 19 2008 @ 09:02 AM CDT

It's not an apples-to-apples question. In my opinion, songwriting and song playing are two different skills. Neither is "easier." One requires techical expertise, one requires the ability to reach people's hearts with ideas and feelings. Boudleaux Bryant vs. Eric Clapton? Paul Simon vs. Vladimir Horowitz? Anyone who can do either -- and do it really, really well -- deserves our admiration.

Re:Songwriting Is Easy?
Monday, May 19 2008 @ 09:18 AM CDT

Quote by: guitapick Quote by: damiengh Au contraire. I say, anybody can do covers, because the originals are available, and you can just play them over and over till you have all the parts disected, afterwhich, your ready to go. The real work comes in creating something special. Something that will resonate with the listeners that makes them say, hey, that sounds really cool. Getting the right match of lyrics and music is indeed a much bigger challenge, let alone something fresh and new. Maybe your friend has low standards on what he thinks he can just throw out at an audience. Maybe he thinks you can just churn things out without thought. Sure, picking the same 3 chords and changing lyrics that's easy, like frying eggs. The real work is coming up with something different and something flavorful that sticks. There are so many variables in what can make a song click. ( melody, lyrics, rhythm and to which audience your directing your music towards). No, I think your friend is way off here. I hear you, Damien...but I do think that the complexity of the tune comes into play here, too. I don't think it's ncecessarily easier to have a big band play a rippin' "Take the A Train", completely in the pocket, or a trio to play a complete Beethoven String Quartet than for me to write and perform a basic 1-4-5 blues that my friend puts some tasty licks to. But if it's that same "...A Train" number compared to a technically/interpretively difficult original solo piece, it's a different story. My opinion, at least. Waddya think?

I'm with ya man. I was totally thinking in terms of the typical rock/pop genre, because I thought that was what Eric was referring to. I was thinking small to medium size rock band doing current rock stuff.

Yep, when your doing record copies of something as complex as the orchestration of a concerto of big band arrangement, that is a whole different ballgame.

Even so, getting something new and exciting in a big band or symphonic orchestra, is a feat too.

Re:Songwriting Is Easy?
Monday, May 19 2008 @ 09:40 AM CDT

[QUOTE BY= Lennon714] Let me rephrase...

A while ago a friend of mine said that my band did not "work out" because we were - and I quote him directly here - "taking the easy way out by doing original music". He said the real test of musicianship is doing covers. Essentially, he said that any old band can throw a tune together and nobody wants to hear songs they don't know.

The musics on most indie music sites can't be covers for copyright reasons .
On these sites million of people listen to bands they never heard of before who make music in genres they know and like.

I think making a fantastic cover is as hard as making a fantastic original .

Re:Songwriting Is Easy?
Monday, May 19 2008 @ 09:41 AM CDT

[QUOTE BY= damiengh] Au contraire.

I say, anybody can do covers, because the originals are available, and you can just play them over and over till you have all the parts disected, afterwhich, your ready to go.

The real work comes in creating something special.

Sure, picking the same 3 chords and changing lyrics that's easy, like frying eggs.

There are so many variables in what can make a song click. ( melody, lyrics, rhythm and to which audience your directing your music towards).

No, I think your friend is way off here.






Surely your arguement,point whatever ref covers players is equally appropriate to original writers ,the only difference being that an originalist,so to speak has come up with a new tune,or derived one from an old one or similar......but once that idea has been spawned,either by caesarian like extraction over a prolonged period or it just fell into your lap after a sudden sneeze you then have the same tools as your cover artistes....a song which has to be learned ,crafted and honed ...and you have scope to do things to it which a coverist can't.If something isn't working in it you can change it,scrape it,shape it ,break it .........Still I s'pose we're going to have two sides who are monumentally opposed to each others views ie Coverists vs Originalists and somewhere in the middle the Instrumentalists who'll just pick up the pieces and play....:-)

Re:Songwriting Is Easy?
Monday, May 19 2008 @ 09:45 AM CDT

That's a cool avatar, Jarvoid...have you met drakonis, yet?