originality and manners and point of mac jams
Wednesday, September 21 2005 @ 07:01 AM CDT

This is way long but worth the read.....

This started in the comment section of twentyfoursevens song l.o.s.e.r

Instead of continuing there I thought I would move it to where it belongs , here in the rant forum.

So that everyone can catch up here is what transpired.

“
WHERE IS THE ORIGINALITY!!!!!!!
Authored by: chimptone57 on Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 10:24 AM CDT

Sounds like every other Blink 182 punk derivative slacker rock out there, you should get a record deal in about a week! Good luck and make sure to save your money, your going to need it.

Again I ask WHERE IS THE ORIGINALITY! God help us the main strem music in this country is garbage!!!

Paul


My response :

WHERE IS THE ORIGINALITY!!!!!!!
Authored by: weitermitfahrer on Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 11:05 AM CDT

nice Paul, real nice.. I'm sure people appreciate you venting in their comment section. BTW you swill doesn't exactly blow the door off originality either.

Actually this band is not a derivative of blink 182, that's really shortsighted of you. blink is more of a derivative of this style. Bands like Less than jake and weston and others you never heard of have been playing this stuff for years (long before blink) and yes its a derivative of early punk but there's no shame in it. Its fun rock and roll for some of us. Don't slam them on creativity when that's not the point of the music. They enjoy playing their stuff and people enjoy listening to it. You make it sound like these guys from Austin are sitting on the strings of some corporate puppet master, which if you looked at their website they are not. They write and play their own stuff and have fun...What the hell is wrong with that? Save the comment box for constructive critisism, don't blame these guys for your hate of top 40 crap. (which this isn't)

Sorry twentyfoureseven for plastering this in your comment box but I figured two wrongs would make me feel better...

Not like that idiots' going to check back


Response :

The Idiot Check's Back!!
Authored by: chimptone57 on Tuesday, September 20 2005 @ 03:12 PM CDT

I'm sure everything you said is true but, SO WHAT! I'm going ONLY by what is here on MACJAMS.COM. I have not visited their web site and don't feel I have to. You are obviously a fan of this band and that's great, however to state that "Don't slam them on creativity when that's not the point of the music" is the single stupidest thing I have ever read on this site!!! Music, art, performing is, by definition, Creative!!! The only way to CREATE music is through CREATIVITY! Being CREATIVE is the ONLY reason to write practice, preform and record the music in the first place!!! Get a dictionary and figure it out already!

It seems to me that if you leave a negative comment OF ANY KIND here on good old MACJAMS.COM, that you are ridiculed and called names, which I have not done, and slammed for having a negative opinion. Not everyone will like my music, nor should they. I am leaving an honest opinion and that's all. I'm not trying to destroy anyones career or be a stirrer of poo, I just know what I like and I find this kind of music played out. Green Day has been doing it better than anyone and their are any number of Green Day clones trying to ride the same wave. I blame the so called, record industry, and their " if it's a hit find 20 more clones so we can saturate the market for maximum bucks and, by doing so, diluting the market thereby killing that particular genre of music" mentality.

I just want to hear some original music again, then again, maybe that's too much to ask.

The Idiot,

Paul


Ok now that we are all caught up…I shall continue the childish argument for entertainments sake because it’s my lame attempt at being creative, which I guess is the only reason to perform.


Paul,

I’m glad I was able to provide you with the stupidest thing you have ever read on macjams. You were kind enough to reply with the stupidest thing I have ever read on macjams so I guess we’ll have to call it even on that one. Let me quote

“Music, art, performing is, by definition, Creative!!! The only way to CREATE music is through CREATIVITY! Being CREATIVE is the ONLY reason to write practice, preform and record the music in the first place!!! Get a dictionary and figure it out already!”


By your own definition you completely invalidate your argument and your negative comment. Let me clarify my stupid statement. Punk rock/ rock and roll is one large derivative genre. Bands that enjoy this genre are for the most part not out to change the world or the genre or move the genre. They play it because that is the style they like to play/perform. That is what I meant when I said that is not the point of THE music. (You may have mis-read , I did not say point of music.) Rock and Roll is fun and highly derivative and no one cares. (ok you do.) But by your definition performing and playing any music is creative so how can you then turn around and make a negative comment about it? I’m seriously just confused by your logic.

Now on to the ‘poor me’ part of your response. Keep in mind this is my personal opinion on what macjams is. Macjams is a community of non-professional musicians that post their work and look for feedback. I think on average most of the artist on here are full-time working people who love to play music, whatever type. Even the band in Austin that started this whole thing. Macjams gives us working monkeys a chance to share stuff we do no matter how derivative it is. Let me clarify something…Your original statement had nothing and I mean NOTHING of value in it. It was rude and uncalled for. This is a community of people that are here to support each other. It’s one thing to add some constructive criticism but there was nothing constructive about your post. You could have easily started a thread in the forum in the rant section to address your frustrations but to single out one artists work for your little flare up? What was the point..Did you seriously think that you weren’t going to get a reaction from it? I gave back exactly what you gave and its funny how you seemed personally offended and insulted that I called you names. You can dish it out but can’t take it. Fine. Macjams is a community, and it’s a reflection of all of us. We make up the community, the good and the bad.

A lot of us don’t have time to sit around and come up with original stuff,. Some of us just like playing music and sharing what we have. Macjams is a chance for us to share with other people, and it’s not easy. I like to think macjams is a safe place to post stuff and get feedback on improving my work. This is not easy for everyone, and to make comments the way you did could be very destructive for some people. If you had posted your comment on ANYONE’s song I would have had the same statement to make to you. I’m not out to defend punk/rock and roll , I’m out to defend the artist that takes the time and trouble and trust to post their work for all to see. Macjams is not the Biz you seem to be so against so stop treating us like we are.

You are entitled to free speech and you are free to state your opinion, but there is a time and place for everything and I disagree with how you went about it. For every song on macjams that I like there are a dozen I don’t care for. If I can’t add any constructive criticism or praise then I move on, I respect the artist for their work and leave it at that…but that’s just me.

I’m sorry I called you an idiot.

-Tony

Re:originality and manners and point of mac jams
Wednesday, September 21 2005 @ 07:58 AM CDT

"WHERE IS THE ORIGINALITY" is a vague statement. Without any backup specifics, it means very little. It is heated, but doesn't really have direction. Even if he doesn't like it, the statement could be crafted to make it a tool for changing the song, without negativity. The of the problems with writing is that keeping a neutral tone is very difficult. Even the most generous criticism can be twisted to sound negative.

I was sorry to read this bashing.

Whatever difference it makes, I think it is original.

Re:originality and manners and point of mac jams
Wednesday, September 21 2005 @ 09:33 AM CDT

First, weitermitfahre , thanks for bringing this up. I love L.O.S.E.R. and Promise (twentyforseven's other top notch tune). Having spent years listening to punk-pop and alt punk rock bands as my son played live gigs all over with his own non-punk alt band, I understand very well that the point of rock music is being cool, having a blast, seducing girls, and trying not to lose too much money in the process. Good punk-pop is not easy to do yet when done well is such great fun, especially live. After all, this sort of rock is all about the live show. If this thread does nothing more than highlight some of the really good alt-punk-pop-rock music on Macjams, then it is well worth it:

L.O.S.E.R. (twentyfourseven)
Please Take This (thekidsinthehall)
Promise (twentyforseven)
Power (benjhannah)
Revolver (Supergene)
Decompression (bigwig)
After The Rain (Supergene)
Speed Up (thinkfish)
Mother (Pie) which may not be punk but is so good, as is
How I'd Love 2.0 (eleveneyes)
( p.s. eleveneyes, please reload your old tracks in mp3!!!!! )

Re: Creativity and Mainstream Music - It is MUCH harder to write mainstream music than people think. Try writing a hit tune and you will see. I have failed over and over again, and I consider myself a creative guy. Mainstream music is, by definition, derivative; but thinking that creativity is not derivative is delusional. L.O.S.E.R. is not Britney Spears mainstream, but it is still mainstream pop-punk done really well with loads of humor, great breaks, pro playing, and handsomely recorded. It is at least a 7 on the Macjams scale, but due to the clever nature of the words and excellent moments in the arrangement, it is at least an 8 in my book. (I gave it 10-9-9-10). It may not be Miles Davis creative, but it is much better than most tunes in that genre, and perhaps better than Miles could have done in that genre. Certainly better than anything I could do in that genre.

Re: Critical (bordering on) harsh comments - Most anyone who takes the time to express their opinion gets my endorsement, if that opinion is not intended to defame or destroy, does not collapse into name calling or instigate lawsuits... (you get the idea.) I don't mind chimptone57 comments because he also implies his bias and, having implied that, it is not that hard to take them with a grain of salt. I wish more people would be as honest. My guess is that members of the band view chimpstone57's comments as entertaining. Still, I am glad you took your argument into the forums, where arguments like this belong.

When people tell singers that they flat or guitarists that they aren't playing in rhythm or arrangers that their drum loops need more variations or engineers that the mix is out of balance or songwriters that their songs are too derivative, I think they are usually pointing out things that are valid opinions. Some people could use thicker skins, just as some people could use more tact. No none is perfect. If someone is playing blues and trying to sound derivative, or playing punk and trying to sound centered in that genre, maybe being derivative is a compliment. Obviously chimptone57 was not trying for a compliment, but maybe it turned out that way just the same; don't rockers want to annoy the older generation? The cap-key YELLING bugged me more than the actual words.

It is not necessarily a good trend, in my mind, to have people comment only on music categories to which they are predisposed. I like our mixed community in which people listen to music they don't normally listen to and feel free to say what they think. (Or else no one will ever listen to my showtunes!) I also think it is not necessarily a good trend to stop yourself from voting on songs you don't like, fearing to bring down ratings for a song. Altho I understand how people don't want to do things that make them feel uncomfortable. Macjams is supposed to be, more or less, a comfortable place to visit. And, in the end, whatever I say is relatively meaningless, just my opinion. People will do what they do.

Some people post songs to learn, so honest feedback is important. Some people post songs just to share, and don't really care if you like it or not, they are not going to change a note anyway. I just want to encourage people to keep posting stuff for free. It is such a cool idea, such a blast to listen, someone somewhere is seducing somebody because of it, and it hardly costs a thing...

Re:originality and manners and point of mac jams
Wednesday, September 21 2005 @ 09:56 AM CDT

Tobin,

I agree with you 100%. I got sucked into the emotional response at first and then figured I would give my opinion...here in the forum where I think they belong. I always saw the comment section of songs to be a tool not someones personal soap box. Like I said if I saw this comment on anyones song I would have had the same reaction. I guess personally I found his comments way to harsh..be-littling and just plain mean..no matter how much he states his bias. If he had posted his rant here in the forums it would have had more merit but ugh posting that type of statement on someones song is just rude.
What I fear is comments like this on songs would keep people from posting. Of course we wish everyone had thick enough skin and playing in seedy clubs for 15 years I feel I have a full plate suit of armor for skin but there are a lot of new / hidden artist that may not be exposed to this type of off the cuff judgemental statements and those are the ones that may become hesitant. Those are the people I was standing up for...I think ...(Ok maybe I was just standing up for myself but with this shiny armor I was trying to be a hero)

Yep I fully expect these type of comments to appear every now and then but if the poster thinks they can say things the way he did while stating "I'm not trying to stir the poo" as he put it...just seems wrong.

It's all about opinions I guess. Felt I wanted to express mine.

Macjams has opened me to all types of new music and I really agree with you on not holding back on commenting on genre's one isn't used to or likess..but I mean if you're going to spend the time writing something about someones song at least make it useful and not hateful? Does the world really need more mean crap like that?

hehe.

Re:originality and manners and point of mac jams
Wednesday, September 21 2005 @ 10:18 AM CDT

Quote by: weitermitfahrer What I fear is comments like this on songs would keep people from posting.

Me, too. Not sure how to handle that, tho, since a site with no critical comments is really boring. Just keep encouraging postings and effort and jobs well done. Personal fans may be more important than impersonal enemies, in the long run.

Quote by: weitermitfahrer Does the world really need more mean crap like that?

Easy to answer that one. So many other ways to say things, especially if the intent is to communicate and be helpful.

Re:originality and manners and point of mac jams
Wednesday, September 21 2005 @ 10:29 AM CDT

Quote by: chimptone57 Music, art, performing is, by definition, Creative!!! The only way to CREATE music is through CREATIVITY! Being CREATIVE is the ONLY reason to write practice, preform and record the music in the first place!!! Get a dictionary and figure it out already!

I find this statement amusing, and it's not just the notion that the dictionary is some sort of authoritative source on the subject of human motivations with respect to music.

Rather, it's that chimptone57 is conflating the two distinct concepts "creativity" and "originality". If, through my labors, I bring something into being I have "created". (I believe the aforementioned dictionary backs me up on that point.) If I build a little house for my pet dog, I created that particular doghouse. It shouldn't matter that there are a myriad similar doghouses...that particular one was created by me. A desire for originality is an entirely different matter.

That point dismissed, the remaining argument would be that originality is the only conceivable (or valid?) motivation for creating. I think that this is absurd on face, since one could easily imagine many other motivations. Some people create because they want to study. (This the concept of an "Etude") Others create because they enjoy the process. Other engage in the activity because they want to glorify their deity. Others do it because they enjoy the fellowship of other musicians. Others do it to impress potential mates. Others do it because they really groove on performing, or making people dance, or entertaining others. None of those reasons really require originality.

Even if one is truly motivated to be original, there is a delicate balance that seems to be fundamental to music: the balance between familiarity and surprise. Exactly how much of each you have depends on the piece in question. One can still be original within the constraints of a played-out genre. Bach is an excellent example of this, because his work really was a refinement of the Baroque style that existed before him. He just took it to such an extreme level of refinement that his work became the definitive statement on how to do Baroque music. After he nailed it down, the world moved on in search of fresh territory, but that doesn't prevent original pieces in the baroque style from being created today.

I think the worship of originality is a bit of a problem, frankly. Isn't that what finally killed classical music? Nobody could stand diatonic music any more because its formula became obvious, and eventually even the concept of the 12-tone row got played-out, and people like John Cage had to resort to absurd lengths to be original.

Besides, let's face it, it's hard or impossible to escape our influences anyway.

Re:originality and manners and point of mac jams
Wednesday, September 21 2005 @ 11:08 AM CDT

Mr. Screaming:

What a well-thought, cogent, articulate response.

I would like to add one point to this discussion:

Quote by: chimptone57 "WHERE IS THE ORIGINALITY! God help us the main strem music in this country is garbage!!!"

...could have been stated in a way that makes the point but is not negative in its tone and avoids the aspect of the comment that is objectionable.

How about mentioning that although the song is executed professionally, and at a very high-level, that fact seems to indicate that this band might have the ability to find the boundaries of the genre and experiment with going outside them, maybe even *well* outside them. In such a way, the band's obvious abilities would be combined with greater originality, and the results would likely be just as excellent, and also new, fresh, exciting, interesting...

It seems a way of expressing the point without doing so in a negative, even destructive, way. This approach seems much more appropriate for a site like this, as Mr. Screaming stated so elegantly. It seems obvious to me that to encourage originality is better than criticizing for its lack.

Do our community members need to be more thick-skinned? I don't know, maybe that's true. I think it's more important for people to pay attention to the attitude and approach they use regarding the efforts of other people to write music, share it, and get comments designed to encourage and help improve.

Re:originality and manners and point of mac jams
Wednesday, September 21 2005 @ 12:37 PM CDT

Just wanted to reiterate what I said on the first pass:

If you want to slam on originality then pretty much the whole punk sound goes back to MC5 so everyone should have stopped after that. Yeah, right. Everything's derivative in one way or another so firing a shot like that is pretty useless. I've never heard this band before but they're tight, they're obviously having fun, and I hope they do well.

Re:originality and manners and point of mac jams
Wednesday, September 21 2005 @ 12:55 PM CDT

Quote by: futzpucker Do our community members need to be more thick-skinned?

I wish I was thicker skinned, that's for sure. When I said "Some people could use thicker skins," I meant that life is easier when you are thick-skinned, that's all. It would be nice if we were thicker skinned and acidic comments didn't have the power over us that they sometimes do. I agree that it's more important for people to pay attention to the attitude and approach they use regarding the efforts of other people. But people can be abrasive, especially rockers. I'd hate to lock them out. Yes, chimptone57 may have crossed the manners line with his initial comments. More importantly, he failed to follow the general accepted MacJams ethic of offering constructive criticism and pointing out problems in helpful detail.

I'm glad this was made an issue so that your advice can be heard. I may have been more accepting of bad manners in this instance because I truly think the performers of L.O.S.E.R. would think the whole thing was rather funny, considering the attitude they are able to convey so well thru their music. An army of folks came to their aid and the debate was fun to read.

When people have used negative language on my song pages, it ended up being gratifying seeing the amount of people who jumped to my (or my music's) defense. Good things can come out of bad behavioirs. It is hard to nurture honesty and good behavior at the same time. I am not endorsing the kind of comments Paul made, obviously. I, at least, like that Paul signed his name and stated his bias openly. Rants about certain genres (or anything else that is outside of the constructive critiques of the song in question), however, belong in the forums.

We all continue to learn.

Re:originality and manners and point of mac jams
Wednesday, September 21 2005 @ 01:02 PM CDT

I should have just had you write my response Tobin,, You say it much more clearly than I did...so.."Yea what he said!"

by the way..Pie's mother was one of the first songs I stumbled on in this site and I was a bit intimidated by it..it is so good I was worried about actually posting my stuff with all the quality stuff on this site but I got over it..obviously..Now look how much of a loud mouth I am.