Re:Gibson Raid
Sunday, September 18 2011 @ 05:11 AM CDT

Just thought I'd add this. If you want a new, real Gibson, look no further than Heritage Guitars. I picked up a used Prospect off of eBay for $1280 (incl shipping) and it is just a lovely guitar despite being one of their cheapest. They street new at around 2,600 (Wolf Guitars, Florida) and if built by Gibson would easily top 3,300. And get this; they're built in the old Gibby factory in Kalamazoo by craftsmen who chose to stay in K-zoo when Gibson moved.

They make just about every traditional Gibson electric ever made (no firebirds, Vs or RDs), with some nice additional models that go beyond (the Prospect is kinda 335 meets Epi Casino in a 333 size body, they also have a hollow body Les Paul).

If this sounds a bit OTT, all I can say is PLAY ONE. And if you're thinking of buying an upper level Gibby, do yourself a favour; spend less and get a better guitar.

Come to think of it, if you're looking at their 'entry level' guitars, my $700 Yammy beats out anything Gibson have under 1,500.

Re:Gibson Raid
Sunday, September 18 2011 @ 08:56 AM CDT

Quote by: Elevator_Funk Quote by: KBU Gibson isn't suspected of smuggling heroin. They're not building suitcase nukes. They're not running a prostitution and gambling rings. They're not creating child porn. They're not beating their employees and forcing them to work there. No lives were in danger. Nope, they're only contributing to the depletion of timber supplies by feigning ignorance of a problem and ignoring laws passed to slow the process of forest depletion. This is exactly the kind of behavior the government should be engaged in because we as individuals don't have to power to stop corporate arrogance in the face of potential loss of timber and wildlife habitat. It was a law that was so direly needeed, it was actually enacted during the BUSH administration.

Brian... I'm actually all for protecting our environment. You should see how careful our family is. Our recycle container is generally full where as our trash container is rarely used. We refrain from buying products not in recyclable containers even when the price might be much better. We are concerned. I have a 15 year old that will have to live in this world we've created...

I think laws such as this are a very good thing WHEN they are written correctly. From what I can see the law has a flaw. I'm trying to find the actual text to look it over. But my understanding is that like said in another post if Gibson had simply setup shop over there and hired people (at pennies a day) they could have avoided this.

I'm not sure if that is true or not but if it is then the law has a MAJOR flaw... A flaw that is making an almost no brainer decision to move jobs from the US to other countries.

I'm in the electronics and computer software business and I see this all the time. One of our customers, Intel (maybe you've heard of them) has pretty much shown that they can build chips one hell of a ton cheaper overseas and ship them here. Not completely due to our bloated income needs but also due to regulations, environmental regulations etc. Another pretty clear cut case that America is regulating themselves out of the world economy. Basically in just about every area of manufacturing it is simply too expensive to build things here in the US.

The funny thing about such regulations is that the overseas country that gets the job of making the stuff pollutes and abuses the environment far worse than the US would in some cases. So in all of our attempts to regulate to protect we are killing our economy, making it easier for other countries to reap the benefits of our designs and actually they do worse for the environment than we would do if we built it here.

Simply put the law tries to protect but we really have no control over what that country does. If they are going to log their forest to extinction how are we gonna stop them? They'll gladly sell their rosewood to china who is wealthy enough to buy it and make millions of chinese guitar clones.

My ride with Gibson has been up and down. I had a 1970s era Custom that was amazing. I have a Standard now that is "ok" but needed some serious work. I'm not a Gibson Fan-boy.

I'm a US fan-boy and I do object anytime laws that we create make it difficult for US companies to continue to do business. But I will completely agree that we do need some controls. They need to be reasonable and just and make sense. It is just not clear to me that this law (wish I could find it) makes sense in how it is written.

Re:Gibson Raid
Monday, September 19 2011 @ 05:12 AM CDT

Quote by: MarkHolbrook The funny thing about such regulations is that the overseas country that gets the job of making the stuff pollutes and abuses the environment far worse than the US would in some cases. So in all of our attempts to regulate to protect we are killing our economy, making it easier for other countries to reap the benefits of our designs and actually they do worse for the environment than we would do if we built it here.

With respect, Mark: isn't this why we set up those regulations in the first place: to preserve our environment?

Re:Gibson Raid
Monday, September 19 2011 @ 07:56 AM CDT

Quote by: guitapick Quote by: MarkHolbrook The funny thing about such regulations is that the overseas country that gets the job of making the stuff pollutes and abuses the environment far worse than the US would in some cases. So in all of our attempts to regulate to protect we are killing our economy, making it easier for other countries to reap the benefits of our designs and actually they do worse for the environment than we would do if we built it here. With respect, Mark: isn't this why we set up those regulations in the first place: to preserve our environment?

Bob, I may be wrong about Lacy. I'm reading it. But I beg to differ that we do indeed set up MANY regulations, rules, laws to protect our environment. Ask my good friend in San Diego who makes the eye lens fibers... He can quote them by public law number because he's been hassled over them for years!

Re:Gibson Raid
Tuesday, September 20 2011 @ 05:51 AM CDT

I know that we make many regulations/laws, Mark...and I'm sure that they're a major PIA for business owners. What I'm saying is that many of those regulations were enacted in order to both repair and preserve the environment. Other countries don't seem to share our concerns. That's where business goes...which I think is a serious shame, in that we NEED to repair and preserve our environment.

Seems like there's a choice: stay at home in the USA and make less profit due to regulations and higher labor costs or outsource and make more profit due to no regulations and cheaper labor costs. The latter will contribute to global warming and depletion of the ozone layer and continue our unemployment problem in the USA.

Re:Gibson Raid
Tuesday, September 20 2011 @ 07:28 AM CDT

Quote by: guitapick I know that we make many regulations/laws, Mark...and I'm sure that they're a major PIA for business owners. What I'm saying is that many of those regulations were enacted in order to both repair and preserve the environment. Other countries don't seem to share our concerns. That's where business goes...which I think is a serious shame, in that we NEED to repair and preserve our environment. Seems like there's a choice: stay at home in the USA and make less profit due to regulations and higher labor costs or outsource and make more profit due to no regulations and cheaper labor costs. The latter will contribute to global warming and depletion of the ozone layer and continue our unemployment problem in the USA.

Well I agree with your statements 100%. Perhaps my initial wording was poor. I'm not normally one to ever push against environmental stuff but yes there are countries that don't seem to care and they make it easy and cheap to setup shop there and do things we don't allow here. Is it right to take that shortcut? Money seems to have this power over both people and businesses.

Not sure what the answer is and I have a 15 year son that is inheriting these and many other problems just like I inherited them from my parents etc. It is a concern. Plus I have two neighbors fighting foreclosure on their homes... Our economy is in shambles. Scary times.

Re:Gibson Raid
Tuesday, September 20 2011 @ 11:05 AM CDT

Yeah...my daughter's 14 and I'm feeling the same thing.

There are so many things to consider. I'm not the answer man, by any means. I've been stomped in many an argument. I can only seriously go by what I see. Seems as though there's a disconnect, now, between self and community/country/planet. I think (think) that much of this has been brought about by corporations and small companies/businesses going multi-national and/or outsourcing...looking for the cheapest labor and the least regulation in order to maximize profit. All this with the blessings of our government representatives.

Couple that with the evolution (or de-evolution) that we've seen from "We" magazine ('70s to early 80s) to "Me" magazine ('80s to the present) (aka: "Greed is Good") and we have what, to my mind, is a serious problem.

I met this guy at a party. We were discussing outsourcing. His take:

"...I've got a 401k program. Whatever gets me the most bang for the buck is what I want. If that means outsourcing, then so be it..."

My response (oooh...I was soooo tame):

"...I've got retirement programs, too. I'll take less on my returns if it means my friends can get their jobs back and their kids can make a decent living when they grow up..."

I don't agree with Obama or anyone else when they say that the days of the community factory are over. That's a copout at best. Collusion with well heeled and interested parties at worst.

Re:Gibson Raid
Monday, August 06 2012 @ 09:14 PM CDT

Gibson acknowledges responsibility and settles:

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/Daily/News/Gibson_and_the_Us_Department_of_Justice_Reach_Settlement_Agreement_on_Lacey_Act_Violations.aspx



http://guitarsquid.com/posts/gibson-guitar-corp-admits-they-screwed-up-and-boy-did-they-screwed-up-hard-agreement-with-department-of-justice-on-their-lacey-act-violations-reached-as-heads-begin-rolling-in-nashville/12480/?frame=1

Re:Gibson Raid
Wednesday, August 08 2012 @ 09:44 AM CDT

Gibson's statement

http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/Gibson-Comments-on-Department-of-Justice-Settlemen.aspx?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Gibson%20Guitar%20Corp.&utm_content=Editorial+eBlast+8%2F7%2F12