Re:Occupy MacJams
Sunday, October 30 2011 @ 09:10 AM CDT

I can only speak for myself when I say that any fundamental change in our system of taxation and spending has to begin with accountability.
Some believe that our government is unable to manage our tax dollars - therefore we should limit or reduce taxation. I can see the merit in that thinking.
I think of a child that is given a large bowl of cereal for breakfast each morning and eats only 1/3 of it and the rest ends up on the floor. Is it possible that if that same child were given 1/3 the starting amount that it would eat it all and waste none of it? If it repeated the original behavior would it learn to change through the experience of hunger?
Is 1/3 of a bowl enough cereal to sustain that child? Or is it hungry in 2 hours and looking for more?

In fiscal year 2010, the federal government spent $3.5 trillion. Of that $3.5 trillion, almost $2.2 trillion was financed by federal tax revenues. The remaining $1.3 trillion was financed by borrowing; this deficit will ultimately be paid for by future taxpayers.
Here's a spending breakdown issued by The White House:

National Defense 26.3%
Health Care 24.3%
Job and Family Security 21.9%
Education and Job Training 4.8%
Veterans Benefits 4.1%
Natural Resources,
Energy and Environment 2.1%
International Affairs 1.7%
Science, Space, and
Technology Programs 1.2%
Immigration, Law Enforcement
and Administration of Justice 2.0%
Agriculture 0.8%
Community, Area,
and Regional Development 0.5%
Response to Natural Disasters 0.4%
Additional Government Programs 2.4%
Net Interest 7.4%



I'm not proposing cuts or adds - but just presenting the most accurate (and I might add conservative) estimate I could find from multiple sources. Our defense budget is often overstated. The White House report has it at the top of the list at 26.3% not including Veterans benefits which would bring it to 30.4%. In fact many numbers are overstated or misrepresented - and my information is likely incorrect to a degree but seems to reflect some consensus.

With enforced taxation of corporations (starting with codes already on the books), proposed taxation of bank financial transfers, and a restructuring of the tax code that tries to level the playing field - perhaps these initiatives along with strict accountability could at least stop the bleeding occurring at the rate of $1.3 trillion a year. This is the tab we are asking our children to pick up. Can we do this without reducing social programs? Can we spend more than 3% on education? I hope so.

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Sunday, October 30 2011 @ 09:51 AM CDT

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Re:Occupy MacJams
Sunday, October 30 2011 @ 10:54 AM CDT

Quote by: -Harold- I think that taking "ownership" in spending is as important as accountability. "How would you spend that dollar if it was yours?" If everyone in government Top-down would have that mentality they could probably achieve more for less money.

Agreed. Instead they talk about things like "increasing revenues," implying that it's their money to spend. It's not. It's our money that we have entrusted to them to do what's right. They are taking advantage of that, and the result is what you are beginning to see now worldwide.

Re:Occupy MacJams
Sunday, October 30 2011 @ 02:46 PM CDT

Quote by: Corporal Beef Quote by: -Harold- I think that taking "ownership" in spending is as important as accountability. "How would you spend that dollar if it was yours?" If everyone in government Top-down would have that mentality they could probably achieve more for less money. Agreed. Instead they talk about things like "increasing revenues," implying that it's their money to spend. It's not. It's our money that we have entrusted to them to do what's right. They are taking advantage of that, and the result is what you are beginning to see now worldwide.

i agree, although I feel it necessary that we all admit our own role in this. we are the ones who allowed this system to become as corrupt as it has. as a people we have not made a peep until recently. we also allowed petty differences to divide us, which is never productive.

an example: I work in Compton. the schools and public services are horrible, yet people pay their taxes, they own homes and businesses, etc... the community is african-american and latino. there is much racial tension between the 2 groups. as an outsider all I can think is that they're both getting screwed and wonder why they have such a self imposed divide. if they cooperated they would have a huge voice, but fragmented as they are, nothing happens. the local government does nothing to help bring these people together and I have my suspicions that it's good for them to keep them polarized. no one pays attention to the local government as they spend too much time worrying about the guy who moved in next door.

the whole democrat/republican/tea party/liberal thing is that same scenario on a larger scale. they introduce topics like gay marriage to get us fighting, then they push other things through while we're not looking. we find out afterwards, complain a little, but then turn our attention to "important" topics such as how stupid/inspiring Rick Perry is. It's almost as if we have all been placed into a state of highly opinionated apathy.

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Sunday, October 30 2011 @ 04:09 PM CDT

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Re:Occupy MacJams
Monday, October 31 2011 @ 06:49 AM CDT

This is a great conversation. But what i'm most curious about is when exactly do you all think that things were better than they are today? That is not a snide or rhetorical question, i'm serious, i want to know. Because that's the question I keep coming back to as I read these political posts, especially because people seem to be convinced that we are in the midst of some kind of unique crisis. How is this crisis unique? I can't come up with any historically supported reason that the country or world is in an apocalyptic fix at the moment, or is struggling with issues of a complexity or severity never before seen. In other words, there's nothing that I read or observe that does not illicit a 'been there/done that' response. And frankly, considering all the 'been there/done thats' throughout history, this current climate doesn't seem bad at all. But it seems that much of the country (and the MJ forums) is convinced that America and the world has taken a disastrous turn downward. So downward from when, from what? What's the baseline?

Re:Occupy MacJams
Monday, October 31 2011 @ 08:03 AM CDT

It is cunning how the so-called “one-percenters” frame the conversation ... so that the true topic that needs to be publicly discussed isn’t the one that occupies the time.

“We hold these ‘truths’ to be self-evident ... and false:”

1. That the only source of value is debt.   If you owe me $20 million and I simultaneously owe you $20 million, then between the two of us we have $0 $40 million dollars.   Plus interest income, each from the other, even if we must borrow from one another to pay it (which is a good thing because, the more someone else borrows from us, the more we have.)
2. There is really such a thing as “a multi-national corporation.”   It makes perfect sense to have a whole lot of shells to hide money under, and your actual business consists of moving the little balls around to paint whatever version of reality you want to paint for any particular audience.   The actual location where production (optional) takes place makes very little difference.
3. That we can all build a brave new world “in perfect (Internet) harmony” using equipment that our own country does not make, and cannot now make.   We can't even make our own shoes.   The entire “real” world of business is an abstraction that exists on banker’s books.   It’s all about the money, as they interpret the term.

The reality, as I see it, is that Rumpelstiltskin is a really bad guy to listen to.

And let the record show that there is one central European nation which is not drinking one single drop of the financial kool-aid.   A nation that is methodically building up its industrial power even as England, France, and the United States are voluntarily stripping themselves of their own strength ... That nation is ...

... Germany.

Re:Occupy MacJams
Monday, October 31 2011 @ 08:09 AM CDT

Quote by: tempie This is a great conversation. But what i'm most curious about is when exactly do you all think that things were better than they are today? That is not a snide or rhetorical question, i'm serious, i want to know. Because that's the question I keep coming back to as I read these political posts, especially because people seem to be convinced that we are in the midst of some kind of unique crisis. How is this crisis unique? I can't come up with any historically supported reason that the country or world is in an apocalyptic fix at the moment, or is struggling with issues of a complexity or severity never before seen. In other words, there's nothing that I read or observe that does not illicit a 'been there/done that' response. And frankly, considering all the 'been there/done thats' throughout history, this current climate doesn't seem bad at all. But it seems that much of the country (and the MJ forums) is convinced that America and the world has taken a disastrous turn downward. So downward from when, from what? What's the baseline?

I think what you are asking about is the decline of the middle class in America - and is it really so bad today.

From a personal standpoint I can relate what I have seen as the decline of the middle class in my lifetime. I was born in 1954 and brought home to a modest brick row house that my father bought for $9,000 with the assistance of the GI bill. He worked for the Philadelphia Fire Dept. for thirty years (straight out of the military) and was able to raise three children and send them to college on his modest income - while my mother ran the household. We got a new/used car every 4 years and the old one became our second car for my mom and eventually us kids to use as needed. We took two weeks vacation every summer - and always had what we needed in terms of the basics - including health care.

My dad left the PFD after 30 years with a decent pension and took a new job that gave him a second pension after 15 years. He then retired at age 67 with two pensions and social security. He died in 1999 and my mom died in 2009 owing no one a dime and with a $30,000 surplus from Texaco stock my dad bought in the 50's. He was an average American by every standard. He had the opportunity and he worked hard - providing security for his family and a brighter future for his kids than what he saw as a child of the depression.

The unemployment rates for our veterans today are staggering. The number of households working two jobs just to survive is at the highest point in recent history. More people rely on food stamps to feed their kids today than ever before. Student debt is at unprecedented levels - and the number of people who have lost their homes or are underwater on their mortgages is unprecedented. With the dissolution of the unions beginning with the Air Traffic Controllers in 1981 - far fewer Americans have health care our pension funds. When I was born, the ratio of the average executive's paycheck to the average worker's paycheck was about 30 to 1. Since the year 2000, that ratio has exploded to between 300 to 500 to one.

In my opinion and from my experience working two jobs while my wife also works full time - and both of my kids 17 and 20 work part time - things have changed.
My Filmmakers Union was gutted in 1987 after I was invested for twenty years leaving me virtually no livable pension plan. I still pay dues - but don't get health care because they raised the required minimum days to qualify - and those must be paid by employers who refuse to do so - so I am forced to work non-union and carry my own insurance now 34 years in.

Am I complaining? Damn straight I am. I got a trade and went to work and paid my dues - but that wasn't enough. So now everyone in my household is working and we had no vacation together this year because we're busted. We have what we need and are a lot better off than many people in this country so I'm embarrassed to complain. Approximately 21 percent of all children in the United States are living below the poverty line in 2010 - the highest rate in 20 years. Yet - despite the financial crisis, the number of millionaires in the United States rose 16 percent to 7.8 million in 2009 - and the top 10 percent of Americans now earn around 50 percent of our national income.

That's why I'm working with Occupy Wall Street. To help raise awareness that things are bad and only getting worse. That we have to come together across social and political lines to work together to reclaim the future for our children. This is a real crisis.

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Monday, October 31 2011 @ 08:26 AM CDT

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Re:Occupy MacJams
Monday, October 31 2011 @ 09:41 AM CDT

This interview last week on Piers Morgan with Michael Moore
discussed many of these issues and is well worth the watch:

Pt.1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB2_0G8CKDY

Pt.2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5LE0pAjH4U