Re:Occupy MacJams
Monday, October 31 2011 @ 09:58 AM CDT

Bud, I hear you, and I empathize, but your story is not in and of itself evidence that the country at large is in decline, or that your children will not have the opportunities that your father (or you) had. They might have to do it differently, but the possibility is still there. I think it's really interesting that so many (white) baby boomers point to their post WWII childhoods as evidence that things were once good and have now gone down the tubes. That was a very small window in American history. It was a time of unprecedented prosperity and opportunity that would not have happened had the entire world not decided to try to kill each other for a decade. I'd hardly want to go back there. And even so, your father's experience was unique even during that time.

My grandfather (your father's age, probably) returned from being a POW in Germany to teach himself HVAC (he completed school to the 8th grade). Even though his family was very close knit, he moved 5 hours away to find work as a heating and air conditioning tech. He was not union, he had no pension. The government offered him a lifetime POW pension but he declined it, preferring to make his own way. He worked that job for 30 years and left when the company was purchased by another organization. He worked here and there for the next thirty years. He had no retirement and little savings but he and my grandmother both worked (she left home at 14 to help support the family during the depression and worked the rest of her life since). They had a fine middle class life. When they became too infirm to work they lived frugally on their social security and help from the family. And then they died.

My father joined the marines when he was 18. He married my mother and they had me the same year. He served during Vietnam and when the war was over he returned home to work in a farm store. He left that job for a better one. He held that job for 15 years, working himself up into management. And then he lost that job. He got another job. And lost that after five years. And so he got another job. And on and on. He was never union, he never expected to be employed by the same company his entire life, he took what he could get and he made it work. My mother drove a school bus so she could be home with us. They did alright. I had a great, average, middle class childhood. And all around us, everything was supposedly going to hell. The cold war, recession, reagonomics, downsizing, the acquisition craze, the wall street bust, the middle east, up and down and all around. It wasn't always peachy and easy but we did fine. Now he and my mom have a comfortable middle class existence. They don't have pensions, they don't have a million in a 401K but their house is paid off, my dad will work until he falls over and they'll be as fine as anyone. When they need end of life care we'll do what we did with my grandparents, we'll scrape it together and we'll take care of each other.

I was the first in my family to go to college. I went on to get a master's degree. I worked and paid my own way as a night janitor, a carpenter, a truck driver, and a retail worker. When I graduated I found an entry (basement) level job. I worked at it and made some good contacts and used those contacts to move into a real entry level job. And then moved into a better job. And did just what my dad did, only I had a degree and I was white collar so I earned more. And it hasn't always been peachy or easy but my daughter has a great, middle class life. My wife arranged her work schedule so that she can telecommute and be home with our daughter when she's not in school (something you sure couldn't do in 1950!). She's never had to be in daycare. And I have every expectation that her life, if she's lucky to live long enough, will be every bit as good as mine if not better. But it's up to her. Nobody's going to do it for her.

So you can see where I'm coming from. I've been unfairly fired. I've had great jobs where the company was purchased by another and i've lost the great job. I went bust in the internet bust. But nature rewards the flexible and the determined and so does this country.

To me, the best thing about the American experience is that it leaves it all to you. It's not fair, and it could be better, and I don't have any problem with anyone working to make it better. But it's not any worse than it ever was, and in many ways it's much better. I don't have any 'it was great back when' story. It's always been what it is, and what it is has been good to my family, ever since they immigrated from Wales in the 1820's.

Again, this is a great discussion, and I appreciate the opportunity to participate in it.

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Monday, October 31 2011 @ 10:21 AM CDT

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Re:Occupy MacJams
Monday, October 31 2011 @ 10:26 AM CDT

To piggyback on tempie's comments, here is an interesting take by the Motley Fool on the 99% / 1% divide...

Attention, Protestors: You're Probably Part of the 1%

Re:Occupy MacJams
Monday, October 31 2011 @ 10:31 AM CDT

Quote by: tempie Bud, I hear you, and I empathize, but your story is not in and of itself evidence that the country at large is in decline, or that your children will not have the opportunities that your father (or you) had.

Just like that Bud needs more evidence than his anecdotes, you cannot counter with your anecdotes. Look up the statistics. Difference in pay between CEO-level and worker-level is around a factor 40 in most rich countries, it's around 400 in the US, and this is a recent (last 10 years) development.

So inequality is growing in the US. Together with this, social mobility is declining. Again, just look up the statistics. Your pay (and other status indicators) are far more determined in the US than in other western countries. Statistically.

Your life story is inspiring. But, without trying to diminish it, it's just one data point. Overall trends are not good. For every story like yours, there is one like a friend of mine who had a highly trained job, and then his industry went into decline. Was retrained as a science teacher, his students absolutely loved him, and now the state is cutting education.

People are doing all the right things, and still not making it. The OWS movement is about students who have a $50k student loan, and can't get a job that remotely pays it off. About hardworking office or factory workers who got laid off and can't find more than a burger flipping job.

Yes, I think this country is in decline.

I'm in computers & science, and it's scary to see how fast China is catching up. The US is cutting research, China & India are pouring tons of money into it. We save next quarter's balance sheet, they invest in being the global leader 5 or 10 years from now. In the US I see hardly any politician thinking in the long term.

Victor.

Re:Occupy MacJams
Monday, October 31 2011 @ 11:23 AM CDT

Vic,

My original post to this forum topic was asking for a historical baseline to justify the claim that America is in unique crisis. Bud responded that his baseline is the post war years of his childhood. I responded to Bud with my own story to demonstrate that the post war years were not the same for everyone. I wasn't claiming that my story was proof that the country was not in decline or crisis, only that the post war years might not be the best time period to use as an 'average' American experience from which to determine the current state of the country.

So my question still stands. OK, there is a wider gap between CEO salaries and blue collar salaries. Wider than when? And OK upward mobility is more difficult now than when? And OK income inequality in the US is growing. Growing from when? When matters, historical perspective matters, especially because this is such a young country. I don't have any problem with anyone saying that the country needs to change, but I do take issue with the claim that the country is in decline, in unique and grave crisis. I don't think there is much comparative historical proof of that.

Re:Occupy MacJams
Monday, October 31 2011 @ 11:36 AM CDT

Quote by: tempie To me, the best thing about the American experience is that it leaves it all to you. It's not fair, and it could be better, and I don't have any problem with anyone working to make it better. But it's not any worse than it ever was, and in many ways it's much better. I don't have any 'it was great back when' story. It's always been what it is, and what it is has been good to my family, ever since they immigrated from Wales in the 1820's. Again, this is a great discussion, and I appreciate the opportunity to participate in it.

Craig -
I respect and admire you for what you and your family have accomplished. Though we have different backgrounds, our children share the same future. That's what bothers me. The political/social/financial trends of the last ten to thirty years - and especially the last four paint what I consider to be a bleak picture for the the next generation seeking jobs and security.
What you failed to address in your comments is your take on the world outside your door. The high level of unemployment - the number of children below the poverty line - the gross disparity in income in our population despite hard times. All of these things are at our door as we contemplate cutting education and social services. You and I are flexible and manage to get by. Not everyone is so lucky.

BTW - my union never guaranteed me employment - it only served to regulate an industry known for long hours and unusual conditions. Ultimately it was undercut to the point of being virtually powerless.

My dad was a civil servant and he was well protected. Today that is still the case. Civil servants earn on average 60% more than the private sector and enjoy benefits the rest of us lack. You could say that the government takes care of it's own - but now that is about to change as well with the projected layoff of 10's of thousands of government employees.

Re:Occupy MacJams
Monday, October 31 2011 @ 11:43 AM CDT

Quote by: tempie Vic, My original post to this forum topic was asking for a historical baseline to justify the claim that America is in unique crisis. Bud responded that his baseline is the post war years of his childhood. I responded to Bud with my own story to demonstrate that the post war years were not the same for everyone. I wasn't claiming that my story was proof that the country was not in decline or crisis, only that the post war years might not be the best time period to use as an 'average' American experience from which to determine the current state of the country. So my question still stands. OK, there is a wider gap between CEO salaries and blue collar salaries. Wider than when? And OK upward mobility is more difficult now than when? And OK income inequality in the US is growing. Growing from when? When matters, historical perspective matters, especially because this is such a young country. I don't have any problem with anyone saying that the country needs to change, but I do take issue with the claim that the country is in decline, in unique and grave crisis. I don't think there is much comparative historical proof of that.

The short answer is since 1981 when Reagan deregulated the air traffic controllers. The long answer is available if you do some research. I'm not a fan of posting links to outside sources in this type of discussion - but there's plenty of info out there to support what I just said.
If you look you will find that the rich were richer and the poor were poorer at the beginning of the 20th century. New legislation and the first world war corrected some of that disparity. Then the great depression leveled the field in a frightening way. The rest = as they say - is history.

Re:Occupy MacJams
Monday, October 31 2011 @ 03:17 PM CDT

Quote by: bud The short answer is since 1981 when Reagan deregulated the air traffic controllers. The long answer is available if you do some research.

Thanks for saving me having to make both points.

Yes, there was social inequality after the 1929 crash, and probably in the 14th century it was even worse. But in our lifetime, the rich have been getting much richer for the last 30 or so years, while everyone else has been more or less standing still if not worse.

Wider than when? ..... more difficult now than when? .... Growing from when?

Google is your friend.

Victor.

Re:Occupy MacJams
Monday, October 31 2011 @ 04:43 PM CDT

I very truly suggest that it comes right down to "The First Law of Manufacturing" ...

• Either you make the damn thing ...
• ... or you don’t.

America finds itself right now in all sorts of “revolutions,” particularly those featuring the electronic equipment that right now sits underneath all of our fingertips (whether we are making music or whiling away our time right here ...) which not only is not “made here,” but ... cannot be made “here” because we have eliminated from our shores the entire industrial infrastructure required to do so.

Yes, yes, we are very eager to “call the shots” to countries that are many times larger than ours, and to call them “most favored nation” and otherwise to fawn over their boots ... but the very simple facts that lie behind this very arrogant behavior is that we give obesiance to these nations because we have created for ourselves no other choice ... all for the sake of this peculiar thing that we consider to be “money.”   We anchor our “wealth” in financial instruments that we call “exotic,” because we do not want anyone observing the absence of clothing.   We insist that we “do not” (vs. can not...) “make these things” merely because we “choose not to.”

N-U-T-S.

To me, the wealth of nations consists of the fact that those nations have choices.   Nations that have the ability to provide for themselves are The Little Red Hen, and for this reason alone they always shall eat.

Yes, yes, I hear the self-stylized “one percent” of Americans proclaiming that they are vastly richer than everyone else, but when I inspect their situation closely I find nothing but empty air.   If they were truly as wealthy as they proclaim to be, they would be surrounded by well-tended fields. They would need say nothing in their own praise, because their works would daily speak for themselves.

LOL, "How is this crisis unique?"
Monday, October 31 2011 @ 05:02 PM CDT

When has the U.S. ever had torture camps? When has the disparity between rich and poor ever been so great? When has there ever been so few media companies? When has education ever been so unaffordable? When has health care ever been so unattainable? When has corruption been so commonplace?

People: your ignorance is NOT as valid as actual intelligence. I suggest before any people start flapping their lips they try for once in their lives of reactive stupidity to do some actual research. I know that likely will not happen but filling message boards with foo-foo land anecdotal stories does not equate to intelligent conversation or civil conversation, it equates to ignorant people sharing how ignorant they are and insulting others' intelligence as being invalid.

It's not hard to do research, it's now easier than ever with computers and the internet. In other words there's no excuse for remaining so uninformed and falsely opinionated and remaining so only exhibits extreme laziness and a complete willingness to misinform people.