Registered: 06/17/05 Posts: 3545 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA
Re:Occupy MacJams
Sunday, November 06 2011 @ 05:59 PM CST
Quote by: -Harold-
A contest about the history of where tax dollars should be spent, which President did what with taxes, which Congress did what with taxes, questioning people's intelligence because they don't believe in others' political opinions is all counter productive to reaching any solution.
There must definitely be enough brain trust and intelligence in this country from all political walks of life to offer some solutions without falling prey to a completely polarized and corrupt government.
Amen.
It's better to regret something you have done, than something you haven't done.
Re:Occupy MacJams
Sunday, November 06 2011 @ 08:11 PM CST
One issue notably absent from the "Occupy" discussion has been education.
This weekend, Fareed Zakaria aired a really terrific special on education (I think you can find and watch it on the CNN web site). At the end of a far-ranging exploration and discussion he offered an acute summary that contained a very poignant quote:
"Either we improve the results of our education system or the market will continue to lower our wages."
In Finland, you have to have a Masters Degree to be a teacher. In South Korea, kids graduate high school with TWO YEARS more class time than kids in the US. I'd hate to see education become a victim of the of the financial debate rather than be rightfully considered as part of the solution.
Re:Occupy MacJams
Sunday, November 06 2011 @ 09:06 PM CST
Quote by: bud
Quote by: rabittwhole
Quote by: bud
Agreed - well put by Mr. Krugman. Unfortunately the obfuscation goes beyond economics and sits right at the doorstep of the OWS movement as city codes and regulations are dug up or invented wholesale to limit our freedom.
so kevin .... all things considered ... where does OWS move from here? As a child of the 60s who walked away... turned on and dropped out .... where do these folks go from here?
That's a good question that only time will answer. In the 60's we were essentially fighting a single issue battle - the war in Viet Nam. Although there were other pressing issues at the time - like the actual implementation of civil rights and the struggle of African Americans and other oppressed people - the war on poverty - etc.
However, once the war was ended the steam went out of the peace movement and other struggles were marginalized. The anti-war movement was extremely polarizing and created a huge cultural divide - as it rose up simultaneously with psychedelic drugs - it's own soundtrack and a seismic break with the 50's and the post WWII generation. Remember the term generation gap? And the battle between trade unions and the hippies?
This movement differs in many ways so it's hard to predict it's outcome. The unions support it - and it's reaching across generations. Having a much broader populist agenda it is actually still growing and will likely continue to do so right through the next election cycle. The authorities will continue to try and crush it - but I doubt they will succeed. In the last month credit unions got more new customers than during the entire year to date. Bank of America was forced to roll back it's fee increases and a movement that was being largely ignored by the media seems to have captured their attention completely - for better or worse.
OWS is still in it's infancy after only seven weeks and is still defining it's objectives. But much has already changed in the national dialogue. Phase two will be defining it's goals - but it is not rushing to do so as it gathers more support and listens to the people who bring their voices and issues with them. This could take months and it should. The OWS general assemblies function on a modified consensus of 90% to pass any agenda item - so the going is slow - but it's direct democracy in action with an emphasis on inclusion and thoroughness. The idea is not only to effect change - but to model change.
Those waiting for demands may never get them - goals are more in keeping with the spirit and patience of the movement. Methods to achieve these goals will be the last phase and some of that will be done simultaneously by others as they understand what is needed to address issues as they emerge.
So - I guess the answer to your question is "slowly forward". I could be completely wrong about all of this - but this is my first hand experience working with OWS as much as I can. Every day that I go to Zuccotti Park I find remarkable energy - new recruits - and a finer tuning of the structure and working groups. And yes - it's messy and plodding and requires a great deal of patience just to filter out the noise and the tourists and the media and the police and get something done - but it's worth it (for me that is). Hopefully I'm helping my kids and fellow men and women as well.
...thanks kevin ...keep reporting ... hats off my friend
Re:Occupy MacJams
Sunday, November 06 2011 @ 09:07 PM CST
Quote by: chikoppi One issue notably absent from the "Occupy" discussion has been education.
Time magazine this week has a special about social mobility, which made very similar points about education.
China & India are investing like crazy in education. The US is still ahead in the quality of its higher education, but other nations are coming up quickly.
Here is one measure of progress, in my field. This list used to be more or less completely dominated by the US:http://top500.org/list/2011/06/100
Registered: 03/18/07 Posts: 3068 Location: Los Angeles, Cali USA
Re:Occupy MacJams
Sunday, November 06 2011 @ 09:15 PM CST
Quote by: VicDiesel
Quote by: chikoppi One issue notably absent from the "Occupy" discussion has been education.
Time magazine this week has a special about social mobility, which made very similar points about education.
China & India are investing like crazy in education. The US is still ahead in the quality of its higher education, but other nations are coming up quickly.
Here is one measure of progress, in my field. This list used to be more or less completely dominated by the US:http://top500.org/list/2011/06/100
Victor.
i think about this a lot. right now in California you have a really hard time getting into state schools. they are only accepting apps from the top 10% of the high school/community college system. there are half as many classes available, so it's taking people an extra 2 years to graduate; tuitions are through the roof: they've doubled in the last few years and during the summer the state doesn't supplement tuitions (even though it's in the state constitution) so a single class costs almost $2000. i can't see this being a good thing for anyone. the real kicker? the chancellors are making 400k salaries.
Re:Occupy MacJams
Monday, November 07 2011 @ 01:52 PM CST
Well. All politics aside, this is interesting. May be an emerging model for grassroots mass media.
"Last week, we wrote about Occupy Wall Street's commercial, which features a montage of protesters explaining what they would like to get out of the movement.
"Since then, we've been contacted by the commercial 's director, David Sauvage. He told us that the commercial was on track to air nationally, thanks to the efforts of a San Francisco-based digital advertising start-up called LoudSauce."
Registered: 07/19/09 Posts: 1046 Location: , NC United States
Re:Occupy MacJams
Monday, November 07 2011 @ 11:33 PM CST
Quote by: VicDiesel
Quote by: crissew
There is NO WAY to tax our way out of this deficit.
Agree.
The only way out is to control spending.
Not agree. Why are you so against raising taxes? Why not a combination or raising taxes and cutting spending? Why do you say it's "the only way out"? Proof, if you please, or at least some plausible reasoning.
Here's my proposal.
Let's just say that Reagan was the greatest president ever, so let's bring taxes back to, oh, the what they were at the end of his first term. And reduce defense spending to what it was on 9/10/2001, now that we have killed Sadam & Bin Laden, and we're out of Iraq (almost).
Sounds good to you?
Victor.
My point was that you could raise the taxes on the rich to 100% of their income and it still wouldn't come close to closing the spending gap. I honestly don't care if they raise taxes on the rich but either way, but it solves very little. We owe $48000 per person in national debt as of this second and it is going to be going up to almost 60k. I have 6 in my family so our tab will be 360k. How do you tax your way out of that kind of spending?
Regardless of whether we raise taxes on the rich, the government already collects far more than any other country on earth and still runs a 40% deficit. To me, the government has already proven that they can't be trusted to spend tax dollars wisely. I think that the more money that is out in the economy to be spent and paid to workers the better. The more money taken from income earners and given to government to pay off their buddies and buys votes with, the worse.
