Re:Done Fishing
Monday, November 21 2011 @ 02:25 PM CST

Quote by: Dadai.2 Quote by: VicDiesel Quote by: Dadai.2 .... Anything to prevent you from having to think about what it means, eh? Victor. cryptic projection? who can say... bud - That video is indeed an idealistic and hopeful take on the Occupy movement. In a perfect world the speaker's sentiments might hold sway. My concern is that it is the small yet more radical/Machiavellian parties that are steering and defining these protests, motivated not by love, but by hatred for our current system of government and the desire to disrupt individuals' rights to participate in free markets, public travel, free assembly, access to their places of employment, as well as the destruction of property all in the name of free speech and the righteous cause. I do agree there is much that needs addressing and changing. Yet I think history teaches that justifying any means (I'm not saying you personally are doing this) by even the best of ends can lead to the slippery slope of anarchy. Hoping for the best...

I'm not as worried as you are by the possibility of radical elements hijacking OWS. Very little of that has occurred in the two months to date and I'm very proud of the restraint that has been shown by the protesters in the face of extreme force by law enforcement. My concern is for the campaign of disinformation that is likely to come from the media and it's political mouth pieces as evidenced by the lobbying dollars being requested to undermine OWS. See:

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/19/8884405-lobbying-firms-memo-spells-out-plan-to-undermine-occupy-wall-street?fb_ref=.Tse3DCANXkQ.like&fb_source=profile_multiline

If I'm not mistaken - I believe it was partly the slippery slope of anarchy that lead to the creation of our nation.

Cheers -
Bud

Re:Done Fishing
Monday, November 21 2011 @ 02:38 PM CST

Quote by: bud If I'm not mistaken - I believe it was partly the slippery slope of anarchy that lead to the creation of our nation. Cheers - Bud

As I wrote, hoping for the best...

And I would disagree with the notion that our country was founded via the slope of anarchy. The French Revolution is a better example of that. But that is certainly a topic for another day and discussion... and most probably not here at MacJams, ostensibly a music site (some say)

cheers...

Re:Done Fishing
Monday, November 21 2011 @ 04:00 PM CST

---My concern is for the campaign of disinformation that is likely to come from the media and it's political mouth pieces as evidenced by the lobbying dollars being requested to undermine OWS.---

You got that right, like Bloomberg crying "Terrorists" this weekend and making a well-distributed propaganda video to go along with it trying to link OWS to the "terrorist". It's very easy to manipulate the criminal media in the U.S., all it takes is a little money and beating up and arresting a few reporters to scare away NBC, ABC, CBS and NPR.

Re:Done Fishing
Monday, November 21 2011 @ 05:09 PM CST

Bud, it's stuff like this that causes me to be skeptical of the good intentions of those leading the Occupy movement as well as where they are heading and the means they advocate:

Occupy Oakland calling for shutting down all west coast ports...

Part of Phase II?

The New Yorker Magazine has this current article on OWS:

PreOccupied - The Origins and Future of Occupy Wall Street

Adbusters (a bimonthly magazine that Lasn founded) had come up with the idea of an encampment, the date the initial occupation would start, and the name of the protest—Occupy Wall Street...

Lasn is sixty-nine years old and lives with his wife on a five-acre farm outside Vancouver... he speaks of “a dark age coming for humanity” and of “killing capitalism,”...

Lasn and White quickly hammered out a post-Zuccotti plan. White would draft a new memorandum, suggesting that Phase I—signs, meetings, camps, marches—was now over. Phase II would involve a swarming strategy of “surprise attacks against business as usual,” with the potential to be “more intense and visceral, depending on how the Bloombergs of the world react.”

From Adbusters website:

Tactical Briefing #19 -
Now begins the second, visceral, canny, militant phase of our nonviolent march to real democracy. We regroup, lick our wounds and begin our counterattack as early as tomorrow.

We will turn this winter into a training ground for precision disruptions – flashmobs, stink bombs, edgy theatrics – against the megacorps and the unrepentant 1%, a festival of resistance in the snow with, or without, an encampment that'll lay the tactical foundation for our Spring Offensive.

Sounds like a lot of little-guy-employees and mom & pop consumers in the 99% are going to be the ones bearing the price for the above Phase II.

Re:Done Fishing
Monday, November 21 2011 @ 05:21 PM CST

Re:Done Fishing
Monday, November 21 2011 @ 06:25 PM CST

Quote by: Dadai.2 Bud, it's stuff like this that causes me to be skeptical of the good intentions of those leading the Occupy movement as well as where they are heading and the means they advocate: Occupy Oakland calling for shutting down all west coast ports... Part of Phase II? The New Yorker Magazine has this current article on OWS: PreOccupied - The Origins and Future of Occupy Wall Street Adbusters (a bimonthly magazine that Lasn founded) had come up with the idea of an encampment, the date the initial occupation would start, and the name of the protest—Occupy Wall Street... Lasn is sixty-nine years old and lives with his wife on a five-acre farm outside Vancouver... he speaks of “a dark age coming for humanity” and of “killing capitalism,”... Lasn and White quickly hammered out a post-Zuccotti plan. White would draft a new memorandum, suggesting that Phase I—signs, meetings, camps, marches—was now over. Phase II would involve a swarming strategy of “surprise attacks against business as usual,” with the potential to be “more intense and visceral, depending on how the Bloombergs of the world react.” From Adbusters website: Tactical Briefing #19 - Now begins the second, visceral, canny, militant phase of our nonviolent march to real democracy. We regroup, lick our wounds and begin our counterattack as early as tomorrow. We will turn this winter into a training ground for precision disruptions – flashmobs, stink bombs, edgy theatrics – against the megacorps and the unrepentant 1%, a festival of resistance in the snow with, or without, an encampment that'll lay the tactical foundation for our Spring Offensive. Sounds like a lot of little-guy-employees and mom & pop consumers in the 99% are going to be the ones bearing the price for the above Phase II.

Excellent New Yorker article. BTW - I know Sage all too well - and he's a very troubled person who needs care.

As for Adbusters rhetoric - I'm not too worried about them determining the direction of OWS. They planted a seed and were pivotal in that. However - very quickly they were playing catch up and have been doing so since. Early on the NYCGA had stopped taking Adbusters seriously - and in fact were upset that Adbusters were attempting to co-opt an organism that was not in their control.

As for Oakland - they will do what they can to have maximum impact and show the strength of their conviction. They believe their actions are proportional to the level of suppression they experienced as a community. The police action at UC Davis is just another example of zero tolerance for freedom of expression in the state of California. However - in L.A. the occupiers are not being dealt similar blows. The attempts of Black Bloc Anarchists to take over the Oakland scene were put down by the occupiers and the NYCGA went so far as to send money to help them make reparations in the community for any damage done by the anarchist's vandalism.
I can only pray for peace as things move forward. Non-violent civil disobedience is a right we protect around the world - but seem to abhor at home.
Go figure.

Re:Done Fishing
Wednesday, November 23 2011 @ 05:58 PM CST

is it done? my brother in law said there is only a handful of people left in NY; here in LA the city has decided that people have to go. they offered occupy LA a 10,000 sq. foot building in the middle of nowhere for $1 a year and some land to farm. now everyone is arguing: some say take the building, some say it's the city trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug, some have pointed out that it's ultimately hypocritical of OLA if they take the building, as the rent has to be paid somehow so obviously if the city pays the rent for OLA it would be at tax payer expense. lots of infighting now. whole thing is looking a little sad, I hope this doesn't just fall apart. hoping for the best.

Re:Done Fishing
Wednesday, November 23 2011 @ 07:13 PM CST

Quote by: michael2 is it done? my brother in law said there is only a handful of people left in NY; here in LA the city has decided that people have to go. they offered occupy LA a 10,000 sq. foot building in the middle of nowhere for $1 a year and some land to farm. now everyone is arguing: some say take the building, some say it's the city trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug, some have pointed out that it's ultimately hypocritical of OLA if they take the building, as the rent has to be paid somehow so obviously if the city pays the rent for OLA it would be at tax payer expense. lots of infighting now. whole thing is looking a little sad, I hope this doesn't just fall apart. hoping for the best.

Can't speak for the rest of the country. New York Occupy is alive and well. Yes - it is recovering from the loss of it's encampment - but it is still quite vital. Now that Zuccotti is gone affinity groups are meeting all over the city and actions are still underway. Incidents like the one at UC Davis add to the relevancy of the movement as it spreads through college campuses.
We'll just have to see what happens in LA. The seeds of discontent and the drive to question the role of big money in politics have been sown deep in the past two months. I don't think it will just fade away - but I could be wrong.
Have a wonderful Thanksgiving - and hug the kids for me.

Re:Done Fishing
Wednesday, November 23 2011 @ 10:09 PM CST

Quote by: airportseven Quote by: michael2 is it done? my brother in law said there is only a handful of people left in NY; here in LA the city has decided that people have to go. they offered occupy LA a 10,000 sq. foot building in the middle of nowhere for $1 a year and some land to farm. now everyone is arguing: some say take the building, some say it's the city trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug, some have pointed out that it's ultimately hypocritical of OLA if they take the building, as the rent has to be paid somehow so obviously if the city pays the rent for OLA it would be at tax payer expense. lots of infighting now. whole thing is looking a little sad, I hope this doesn't just fall apart. hoping for the best. good to hear. i think you're right that now the college kids will run with it. you have a great holiday too. Can't speak for the rest of the country. New York Occupy is alive and well. Yes - it is recovering from the loss of it's encampment - but it is still quite vital. Now that Zuccotti is gone affinity groups are meeting all over the city and actions are still underway. Incidents like the one at UC Davis add to the relevancy of the movement as it spreads through college campuses. We'll just have to see what happens in LA. The seeds of discontent and the drive to question the role of big money in politics have been sown deep in the past two months. I don't think it will just fade away - but I could be wrong. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving - and hug the kids for me.

Re:Done Fishing
Thursday, December 01 2011 @ 03:46 PM CST