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Location: MacJams, City
Re:Jesus Christ dead, age approx. 32
Thursday, July 09 2009 @ 05:13 PM CDT
THE SERMOON THE MOUNT or in your Heart
The Pharisees had probably started with good intentions and were sincere in their endeavor to please God, at least in the beginning. They were so zealous for God that they wanted to protect his laws. What they decided to do is build a wall around the law, the 613 commandments. This wall consisted of 100 to 1,500 additional man made laws added to the former commandments. Their logic was like this, by putting a fence, a protective barrier around the Holy Law one would first have to break this law before they would break God's law and become guilty and be punished. The problem was that as time went on the Jewish people become more familiar with and obedient to the fence laws of the Pharisee’s than to God's law. After all there was so much more to study before one could break through and become actually guilty from God.
In the New Testament period Jesus' whole ministry was a contention with the Pharisees traditions. They wanted him to validate and approve what they called the tradition of the elders (the fathers) Mk.7:1-9 Matt.15:1-4. Contention grew between Jesus and the religious leaders as they wanted his approval of their traditions to be considered equal with Scripture. Jesus was clear he was not going to approve of their man made traditions saying,” you lay aside the commandment of God and hold higher the tradition of men.” The Pharisees with their laws set up a barrier between God and man making the commandments of God to no effect. Because they stopped people from seeing the word of God and they were not convicted of their sin.
It is for this reason Jesus rebukes them saying “Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.” And as He said these things to them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to assail Him vehemently, and to cross-examine Him about many things, lying in wait for Him, and seeking to catch Him in something He might say, that they might accuse Him.” (Luke 11:52-54)
The Pharisees knew much (but not all) and they did not care to tell the regular people who were not in their religious club. Jesus comes along and explains the things of God to the common people and the Pharisees see that they are losing control. They were to feed the people the word and instead they hid it from them. Jesus went even further and gave the disciples the understanding of the parable, the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven (Mt.13:11)
When we come to the New Testament Jesus defines what true law keeping is in his sermon on the mount. The sermon on the mount in Matthew chapter 5 was not meant to be the “golden rule” for Christian ethics for today. Yet many think we need to obey this sermon for salvation when it was actually a rebuttal against Pharisaic Judaism and the true intention of the law as given to Moses.
Mt. 15:1-3: “ Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” Mark 7:2-5 adds, “ Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?” They put their traditions above the commandments of Moses thereby nullifying them.
According to the Pharisee's principles, some of their laws involved heavier guilt than sins against the revealed Law of Moses. The tradition of the elders said he who rejects hand washing is like a murderer their judgment will be poverty. (Mk.7:1)
Their Judaism had the tradition with decrees, intended to separate the Jew from all contact with Gentiles who were considered unclean. Any contact with a heathen, even the touch of his cloths, would mean defilement, so coming from the market the orthodox Jew would have to immerse in water. Earthen vessels that had contracted impurity were to be broken; those of wood, horn, glass, or brass immersed; while, if vessels were brought of Gentiles, they were to be immersed, put into boiling water, purged with fire, or at least polished.
They washed their hands (rubbing them) vigorously”-that is, not merely dipping the finger or hands in water as a sign of ablution, but rubbing the hands together as a ball or fist, the usual manner is water poured over them. So the phrase comes to mean “diligently, carefully, sedulously.” The were to pay the utmost attention to washing and do it carefully and according to rule.
Jesus always brought their traditions to the ultimate authority the word of God, He quotes Isa.29:13 in Mk.7:6: “These people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me and in vain they worship me teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.” By adding traditions alongside the word they watered down the truth. Their traditions became more important than what God said through Moses.
The Pharisees were meticulous in keeping the law of God especially around other people. Jesus used them as an example of righteousness.
Matt. 5:20: “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.”
How can we have a greater righteousness than those who were so zealous in keeping the law? The righteousness Jesus is speaking of is from the inside, a heart change. Something the Pharisees lacked since It can only be apprehended by faith. Faith is superior than all the law keeping. This does not mean we dispense with the commands but scripture says they are established by faith. True faith will produce the works that are required but it must come from inside not just the outside.
Matt. 23:25: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.” They looked right from the outside on everyone else but Jesus knew what was inside. This is how our righteousness must exceed theirs by having Christ's righteousness not by our works alone but by faith foremost of all.
Christ clearly explains the fundamental principle of His own interpretation of the Law. Mark 7:17-23 :When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, “because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, “thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.” All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”
If it does not reach or affect the “mind”, or the “soul,” it cannot pollute, it cannot make him a “sinner”. What is thrown out of the body non-nutritious, the food taken into the stomach is support for our physical life.
Jesus, is not declaring all food to be 'clean', setting aside the Levitical distinction between the clean and unclean This does not happen until he dies on the cross.
Matt 15:18-20 states our words show our thoughts. The heart was the seat of our emotions. the heart is the center not only of spiritual activity, but of all the operations of human life. “Heart” and “soul” are often used interchangeably (Deut. 6:5; 26:16; comp. Matt. 22:37; Mark 12:30, 33) but not always. The heart is synonymous with the Spirit of man.
It is out of the heart that defilement comes (Jer.17:9-10) The heart is wicked, full of iniquity.
The heart is also the seat of the conscience (Rom. 2:15). It is naturally wicked (Gen. 8:21), and hence it contaminates the whole life and character. This is why there is need for a change of nature that will change human behavior.
Our words are the expression of thoughts and feelings; they defile the person making us really polluted or offensive in the sight of God. This is what really makes the soul corrupt and repulsive in his sight. This is why Jesus said in Mark 7:23 “All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”
Luke 11:39-42 But the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. “Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also? “But rather give alms of such things as you have; then indeed all things are clean to you. “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others.
The Pharisees laws were burdens that God never intended, it brought them into bondage because it went beyond scripture. This is why Jesus quoted Mt.11:28 to relieve the people of laws that were not instated by God. They annulled the mosaic law by their interpretations which was strictly an outward conformity instead of from the inside.
Jesus not once spoke good about traditions, neither did Paul as he said in Col.2:8: “Beware of philosophy and tradition of men, according to the tradition of men not according to Christ he says to let the word of God dwell in you richly.” In their case it was the law which was the word of God in the Old Testament covenant.
The Pharisees kept the letter of the law outwardly. They thought if they did not steal or kill they were not guilty of breaking the law of Moses. Jesus went further showing them that the true righteousness of the law is how one acts on the inside. What it really demanded was not just an outward obedience but it had an inward intent, from the heart. Someone would violate the righteousness of the law of Moses long before they commit the physical act. If one hated his brother they would be guilty of murder in the heart long before they committed the act. However, the Pharisees considered themselves not guilty because they never did the physical act of murder. They made the law of no effect because it did not affect the inner man. They were concerned with outward actions only. The true conformity to the Law of Moses was internal not just external. It was the spirit or the principle of the law that needed to be adhered to and accepted for one to obey correctly on the outside. Deut. 6:4 was memorized as the faith of Judaism yet right afterward it says “ to love the lord your God with all your heart, mind soul, and strength. They excluded the heart and soul they very intent of the law. Their heart was hardened and it showed externally in their lives as Jesus rebuked them for tithing their mint and cumin but neglected the weightier matters of the law, JUSTICE and MERCY. They were unjust and denied others who the law was to be fulfilled to mercy, (Mic.6:8)they did not exercise mercy to those who truly needed it.. When we look at the NT we find people came to Jesus crying out for mercy and he was always willing to quickly give it to them. But those who came to him confident in their self righteousness he challenged or rebuked.
Paul who was a Pharisee writes in Rom 10:2-3: “For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. In other words by outward works not by faith. Certainly there were different degrees of hypocrisy among the Pharisees.
Again the point of the law was to convict the inner man but they would not allow it and were actors making themselves look righteous to men by Jesus saw their lack from the inside.
Luke 18:9: Also He spoke this parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others. but the self righteous in their own works will not be accepted by God. Only those who come humbly depending on his mercy seeing themselves as sinners will be accepted.
Luke 5:32: “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” The Pharisees saw themselves as righteous not as sinners. Why? Because they considered themselves as keeping what God required. But they obeyed it only on the outside, and on their terms. So they believed their own laws superceded Moses’ law.
Today the church makes its own numerous rules and regulations that are neither in the law or in principle found in scripture. They exert conditions that do not help but actually can restrict and stumble those they actually want to be helped.
Have we learned anything from the past, I wonder how much we have become like the Pharisees today?
Peace & Love
I Almost Always Try to Think Positive Thoughts.
Location: , UK
Re:Jesus Christ dead, age approx. 32
Thursday, July 09 2009 @ 05:55 PM CDT
As Alley-Oop said"God is love" and that's exactly what God is. Love is positive and promotes growth and newness, while the opposite ruins and kills. I agree with most of what he says except that I believe we do go on after death (in some form), because we are energy and energy doesn't die. Also there are many atheists who are more Christian in their actions and deeds than some Christians or others belonging to orthodox religions.
I'm not getting wrapped up in all this argument that seems to crop up every now and then though. Since everyone is posting poems, here's one of mine that came through meditation.
Open up all Churches.
Keep your Churches open wide, and never close the door to those who come to look inside, Make them welcome; show them all your ways of kindness; how you live your life of goodness, helping others on their way,
All the Churches! Come together! Worship all you see around, knowing, that in all you see, a part of God is always found; and nowhere in greater profusion, than in the very heart of you.
You are the Church, not the building, which is only there to hold you all; so come together with your many parts, making more the part of God, and when He comes as one within you, more His works of love impart,
So not to separate, but come together, recognising that in each is the will of God, for all of you to go and teach.
Hold the doors you have wide open, welcome all to enter in; and recognise the God in others; bring Him forward to your reach, and never turn away for want of recognition, He’s always there for you to seek.
Open wide, and bare your friendship, greater friends you’re sure to meet: and this is why; so they can guide you. Did you think you guided them? (God is in us ALL remember, sometimes hidden deep inside).
So, open up, and show your friendship, they’ll come rushing to your side. Never treat them as forsaken, take them closer to your breast, feed them off the milk of kindness, God in glory does the rest.
For, how does God come? Have you seen Him? Have you travelled all the world? Have you lived the lives of all things? Suffered? Laughed with all the rest?
Well, it would take a thousand life- times (even more, I’ve sometimes guessed), to come to God in all his guises; even then, you’d need to rest, before you travel onward, looking forward to the best,
And even still, while on your travels, you were standing in His midst, but did not see that He, is all things, and this journey never ends.
Then keep your doors wide open, let all others enter in, to share the part of God discovered, that was always held within.
It's never too late.... is it?
Location: , United States
Saturday, July 11 2009 @ 09:30 AM CDT
I suppose I should restrain myself, but I have never been very good at that. I hope nobody hates me for this!
Phony Soundforgery comes to mind.... Very tricky RM / H!!! !Los rastros estuvieron perdidos, pero los encontre`!
With some notable exceptions, this has been a great thread. I've spent the week pondering some of the comments, I have enjoyed the poems and other commentary. I personally can't imagine why it should go away. I do hope we can continue, respecting each other. I find it interesting what other people think or wonder.
Along those lines, somewhere on this thread or another one... someone said something along the lines of "useless materialist" or something like that. I guess the argument is that if you are concerned with matters of reality, you are wasting your time? That seems odd to me. I believe that everything that is reality is just that, it is part of this existence. I don't care if it is constructed, managed, or naturally occurring, it's still reality and it is still interesting. To deny reality or the material, seems ludicrous. After all, even the spiritual believe that this life is important -- that the soul is on a trip and this is an integral and pivotal part of that process. If not, why bother being here, in reality? If reality doesn't matter, why should any God send us HERE to learn? I believe it does matter. Dismissing the human question "what is this all about?" by saying reality or the material is unimportant is just backwards. The material world and all the workings of it provide an absolutely necessary framework for the lessons we are to learn. You can't just dismiss that.
The potentially valid argument is that some people get caught up in the material world as objects of desire. And I suppose you could argue that the desire to "understand" the material might count, but I think that is just pushing it too far. Learning and understanding are not material desires in nature. If you can dismiss learning and understanding as material lusts, then I assume you can just forget the whole bag. What good would religion be in that case? You might as well go back to consuming, defecating, procreating (and lest we forget the "progress" element of existence according do the respected Daug -- killing). Who needs learning and knowledge? No, I don't buy that. It seems rude and foolish to make that accusation. But I would be interested in hearing feedback discussion about that point if it seems to you that I missed something. This is how I learn, by investigating/probing. Your feedback and discussion are much appreciated.
Totally independent new music: http://www.pollyputthekettleon.com
Wednesday, July 22 2009 @ 03:30 AM CDT
Told you I'd be back
Now MoM, I wasn’t expecting you to take out your dentures right away There’s time for that, love…
At any rate, (and with a relaxed state of mind… thanks to my holiday) I have to say I actually agree with you on the presentation of my "SCHTICK" (HA! Get it??)… Also, I admit I’m not entirely clear on your opinion of me… It really doesn’t matter anyway… Oh well, it seems I was not the only one led astray by your poetic musings… “Self-Aware knuckle Dragging” & “Cro-Mandarin” caught some jammers off guard… So, I ask to be excused from my own defensive (over)reactions… to a point…
The curious thing is, why so interested in the “ronnielong persona” or “alter ego presentation”?? I realize “ronnielong” presents as a beer drinking, guitar smashing basement dweller (aka “Self-Aware knuckle Dragging”)… but why the tangent? From christianity to internet personality? From bible verses to vapor media and YouTube?
Were you truly impressed by some of the discourse put forth by such a being? So much so, you we inspired to enter into a "discussion" with the beast and “congratulate” a masked persona? That can’t be…
Oddly enough, and to my own chagrin, sarcasm can be a tricky mode of reprimand via internet… if not admitted or explained by the donor of course. Hence, the willingness to become unhinged... Misunderstandings? Silly ape brain? Spasms? Alter ego?
After all, bottom line is, no one here really knows me… they only know “ronnie”… and “ronnie” makes trouble in the forum! Hehehehe… Always have, always will… since 2004
Perhaps that is what you were getting at all along… eh?
Now... on to YouTube and the decline of man!!
(BTW I find it amusing that almost half of this thread involves a YouTube video in some way- and not all posted by me!! Hahahaha…)
Wednesday, July 22 2009 @ 03:33 AM CDT
Its cool Harold...
Didn't mean to be mean..
I forgot my own creed of live and let live...
We just gotta remember this is a MUSIC site...
Ps. Why change the title of the thread? You knew I was going to find it anyway
Re:Why change the thread name? Muawahahahaha...
Wednesday, July 22 2009 @ 03:46 AM CDT
Sorry Rich, I like this song a lot more... Enjoy!
I’ll throw a pie in the face of piety
I’ll torch a torah right off a bridge
I am a reverend of irreverence
I’m a shill for any sacrilege
I understand that faith in a deity
Helps the masses who are having hard times
But blasphemy like prostitution
Are clearly victimless crimes
Blasphemy, blasphe-you, Jesus Christ the blackest Jew
Blasphe-you, blasphemy, poisonous pedagogy
I’m an unbeliever, I’m a heretic
I’m gonna projectile puke off a pew
I’m a trouble making immature imp
I’m gonna turn your other cheek for you
I understand we all need something to believe in
I believe I’ll never be given wings and
I’m sorry if it’s up there cuz I didn’t think
A song was gonna hurt its feelings
Blasphemy, speaking deadpan
Apparently this god has got a master plan
Now they call foul, pure heresy
But ya gotta wonder, does he have a plan B?
Horus similar to Mithra, Attis analogous to Krishna
Jesus, different name same story
All based on ancient Egyptian allegory
My position hasn’t been occulted
It can never be more overstated
My intelligence has been insulted
So my tongue lashes out in defense
Anything that is your holy or sacred
I’m gonna desecrate and use in jest
But you’ll never hear a crack about Mohammed
Cuz I don’t wanna get shot in the chest!
Blasphemy, isn’t this fun
Rob a rabbi, bugger a nun
Blasphemy, want some more?
Mother Mary, the virgin whore
Wednesday, July 22 2009 @ 08:32 AM CDT
Then why not just let it go, Jimmy?
Rock'n Roll, man.
Location: , United States
Wednesday, July 22 2009 @ 09:51 PM CDT
I'm glad to see you're back, Ronnie, dear. And very glad you enjoyed your trip.
MoM's a sarcastic bitch, there's no doubt about it, but no sarcasm here: your post today was very nice, and I mean that. And you are absolutely right: I do not know you. Rest assured that my argument was never with you; it was with your persona. In the real world, the evidence would indicate that you are a very together fellow with a good, honest "brand", and very focused PR to support it. I wish you great success (or at the very least, loads of cash)!
In the forums, though, the ronnielong persona has repeatedly struck me as simplistic and pointlessly belligerent. It simply cannot be possible to discount with 2 minute video clips institutions that have for centuries been inextricably interwoven with the culture itself (a culture that, for that matter, makes a ronnielong not only possible but meaningful). And that classic disinfo technique of defining an idea via its least defensible exponents ("The Most Hated Family in the Universe") really strained my patience with easy 'bang your head' bullshit.
I have been around here long enough to know that the forums are fluid, and often support multiple lines of inquiry; don't be alarmed by the Jesus thread's late devolution into personal attack. Personally, I think we spiced it up a little!
All in all, you are not an easy man to knock down; and I am heartened that you are ready to put this argument behind us, and move onto to the next one....
PS. Oh, and Ronnie, dear, if you respond to this, please try to limit your answer to two posts: Dadai is very much looking forward to logging in the 200th reply, and I think that's the LEAST we can do.......?
Location: Santa Barbara, CA United States
Wednesday, July 22 2009 @ 09:55 PM CDT
... oops, make that one post ronnie!
Location: , Nowhere !
Wednesday, July 22 2009 @ 10:04 PM CDT
I ll pass it to you Bro !
«Blues is easy to play, but not to feel » (Jimi Hendrix)