Re:Warm isn't it?
Wednesday, July 18 2012 @ 11:19 PM CDT

Quote by: MotherofMeursault Back to your comment, I think it might be easiest to start by asking, "what are rights and where do they come from?"

To me, climate change is a matter of basic physics: if we keep doing what we're doing, what will happen to the world.

To you obviously it's about something else entirely. But beats me if I understand what that is.

Victor.

Re:Warm isn't it?
Thursday, July 19 2012 @ 01:46 AM CDT

Quote by: VicDiesel Quote by: MotherofMeursault Back to your comment, I think it might be easiest to start by asking, "what are rights and where do they come from?" To me, climate change is a matter of basic physics: if we keep doing what we're doing, what will happen to the world. To you obviously it's about something else entirely. But beats me if I understand what that is. Victor.

I don't understand the connection here. I get Mom's statement - but I'm not sure what yours has to do with it.

There are two different conversations that I feel inform each other going on in this thread. One is about the science of climate change and the other is about the role of the individual as well as the role of government in addressing global issues.

Re:Warm isn't it?
Thursday, July 19 2012 @ 08:41 AM CDT

Quote by: bud I get Mom's statement - but I'm not sure what yours has to do with it.

We've had climate discussions before, and our esteemed music friends to the right skip immediately past science and statements of fact to social/political issues. I fail to understand the mindset makes them do that, that makes them hear statements of fact in terms of values/rights without considering the facts as such.

Victor.

Re:Warm isn't it?
Thursday, July 19 2012 @ 09:52 AM CDT

Quote by: VicDiesel Quote by: bud I get Mom's statement - but I'm not sure what yours has to do with it. We've had climate discussions before, and our esteemed music friends to the right skip immediately past science and statements of fact to social/political issues. I fail to understand the mindset makes them do that, that makes them hear statements of fact in terms of values/rights without considering the facts as such. Victor.

As I stated earlier in this thread, the science/facts of climate change have been hopelessly commingled with the (still unspecified) solutions. I have no interest in the science, but I do care about the political ramifications of any proposed solutions.

From the beginning my questions have been: What is to be done? and What is the mechanism by which it will be done? These are political considerations, not scientific ones.

I offered to take the topic to a new thread so that it would not interfere with your prosecution of scientific standards.


MoM

Re:Warm isn't it?
Thursday, July 19 2012 @ 11:01 AM CDT

Quote by: VicDiesel Quote by: bud I get Mom's statement - but I'm not sure what yours has to do with it. We've had climate discussions before, and our esteemed music friends to the right skip immediately past science and statements of fact to social/political issues. I fail to understand the mindset makes them do that, that makes them hear statements of fact in terms of values/rights without considering the facts as such. Victor.

What would I do without Vic's insights into my thinking and motives, let alone my understanding of "science." Perhaps in Vic's world, the only opinions to be entertained regarding science are those with which he agrees. All else is just rubbish on its face. And spare me the consensus argument, as truth, scientific or otherwise, is not established by communal assent, even that of "experts." Scientific truth, as well as truth in general, is a continuous pursuit via research, accumulation of data, analysis, and conclusions by individuals, even the best of whom are susceptible to their own personal and political biases, flaws and blindspots . And if that's the case, then flawed input in terms of assumptions and methodology can affect results. And individual assumptions and conclusions that may be flawed can indeed become consensus assumptions.

As I mentioned before, one can argue that science, to a large degree, can only tell us what is happening right now; what we know right now. And for that reason pursuit of scientific truth is just that... a pursuit that in most cases never completely arrives at a destination. It continues its journey. Depending on the subject matter, science ceases in its pure form when it delves into predictions of trends, especially the longer the term. And science ceases to be authoritative (it does have valid information that can inform, though) as to how to "remedy or solve" a potential or real problem. That becomes a question of cost-benefit analysis; a discussion to which many can and should supply opinions and input.

Now it seems to me, that if one is to make it an article of indisputable fact that global warming is accelerating and is man-made, and will with all certainty wipe out life as we know it in the not too distant future... well then, yes, the cost benefit analysis is clear. The rub is that many (even among man-made global warming advocates) are not making that case. And those that are cannot prove their long-term conclusions. It is merely their more or less informed (maybe well-informed) speculation.

I do have serious questions, as do more and more scientists and researchers, about AGW (its extent, impact, etc.) versus other causes that, in combination with AGW, would better explain the warming and cooling cycles of the last several thousand years. To the degree that there are those who respond with, "Move along, there's nothing to see here," ironically they express quite the opposite of a truth-seeking open mind. Science never says "We know all that we need to know."

We all could use a little more humility (certainly me) when entering into a discussion of a topic of this magnitude. Just sharing my thoughts so as to not be misunderstood, with no intention to change anyone's mind.

peace, love, rock & roll, and all that jazz to all, including Vic...

Re:Warm isn't it?
Thursday, July 19 2012 @ 08:26 PM CDT

Quote by: MotherofMeursault As I stated earlier in this thread, the science/facts of climate change have been hopelessly commingled with the (still unspecified) solutions.

How can something be commingled with something that is still unspecified? That's what I mean: you seem to skip a step, everytime this topic comes up.

From the beginning my questions have been: What is to be done? and What is the mechanism by which it will be done? These are political considerations, not scientific ones.

Do you accept the scientific facts? As in, what 97% of climate scientists completely agree on? (And that is not a joke number: that is the result of a real survey.) Because most climate deniers do not agree on the science.

Victor.

Re:Warm isn't it?
Thursday, July 19 2012 @ 08:31 PM CDT

Quote by: Dadai.2 What would I do without Vic

I thought you said "end of discussion"?

science ceases in its pure form when it delves into predictions of trends

I guess you never had any science classes.

End of discussion, as far as you and I are concerned.

Victor.

Re:Warm isn't it?
Thursday, July 19 2012 @ 08:50 PM CDT

Quote by: VicDiesel Quote by: Dadai.2 What would I do without Vic I thought you said "end of discussion"? science ceases in its pure form when it delves into predictions of trends I guess you never had any science classes. End of discussion, as far as you and I are concerned. Victor.

like I said, Vic - you're a piece of work...

Re:Warm isn't it?
Thursday, July 19 2012 @ 09:38 PM CDT

This room needs a new decorumator

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Friday, July 20 2012 @ 07:36 AM CDT

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