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Daugrin
Forum Full Member


Registered: 03/24/09
Posts: 1204
Location: , Extraverse
 
Katy Perry cries real money...
Sunday, August 04 2019 @ 07:53 PM CDT



How about an insightful study into the evolving legal difficulties experienced by the composers and producers of Katy Perry's Dark Horse hit? Don't care 'cos it's pop icon Perry? You should... This is going to the Supreme Court on appeal?
There is also a nice summation of where this case leaves the lawyers, musicians and audience.

Daug
MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 972
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:Katy Perry cries real money
Monday, August 05 2019 @ 04:13 PM CDT

So, prithee, how does this differ from the now-settled lawsuit concerning Stairway to Heaven? Or, for that matter, George Harrison's My Sweet Lord?

All composers who work in the equal-temperament Western system must rely upon exactly the same twelve notes. Furthermore, the ways in which those "same twelve notes" can be combined are technically limited by the acoustical physics of that same temperament.
Daugrin
Forum Full Member


Registered: 03/24/09
Posts: 1204
Location: , Extraverse
 
Re:Katy Perry cries real money
Monday, August 05 2019 @ 10:48 PM CDT

Quote by: MikeRobinson
So, prithee, how does this differ from the now-settled lawsuit concerning Stairway to Heaven? Or, for that matter, George Harrison's My Sweet Lord?

All composers who work in the equal-temperament Western system must rely upon exactly the same twelve notes. Furthermore, the ways in which those "same twelve notes" can be combined are technically limited by the acoustical physics of that same temperament.



The video explains the legal finding nicely. Why are you having trouble?

Mr. Mike here is some help. Zink Blimbs lawyers overwhelmed the lawyers for Randy California in the case of "Stairway". It is clear Page saw Spirit perform the tune in question live numerous times. What you might consider is that Page saw RCs hands play the tune, Page was without a doubt the greatest thief in popular music. Page obviously sat in his dressing room waiting to go on, after watching RC and simply worked the thing until he had something he liked. Like every good thief Page had the best lawyers. Just listen to the Spirit tune in question. Ask yourself, "Would Page pinch this?" Answer, "Yes." Page is guilty as hell, but got away with borrowing key components that became the song "Stairway".

The George Harrison issue is traditional copy write law. Melody and arrangement can be protected. Chords and rhythms in general can not be protected. In my humble opinion, did GH pinch the tune in question? Probably. Did GH change the tune around enough to beat the lawyers? Was GH treated fairly in court? GH bought the tune in question after the court verdict. He spent time stealing the song over and over again and released different takes on the original tune during the remainder of his productive life. He had a sense of humor.

The Perry case is not about any of the traditional legal points in cases of this type. The synth riff at the heart of this case is a color device in both tunes. No one has ever won a huge copy write case over a sound design issue, until now. That is why the verdict and award are so important. Sound design is now being protected.
Perhaps you can watch the vid again, I thought the point of how Perry's case is unique was made very well.

Daug
MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 972
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:Katy Perry cries real money
Tuesday, August 06 2019 @ 08:53 AM CDT

But I'm pretty sure that this “legal finding” will go down on appeal.

In the case of Stairway, they simply pointed out that "it is a chromatic chord progression."   Many songs feature the same device.   They teach it at University.   It is a distinct feature of both songs, but the fact that it appears in both does not establish that the second artist stole the idea nor that the first artist owns it.   Whether or not they actually knew each other.   You hear very similar things in the musical tapestry of many symphonies.

Consider this:   Can You Own A 300-Year Old Chord Progression?

... what was similar between the two works was not protectable, so there was no infringement.   In my opinion, that’s one of the things that makes this such an important decision:   Even if you find that defendants had “access” to plaintiff’s work, plaintiff cannot monopolize musical expression that was in common use prior to plaintiff’s work.

And this:   Why Stairway ...

The first person who came up with this cool descending chromatic line within a minor chord would/should have gotten copyright protection for it under today’s standards.   Irrelevant whether it is the “main melody.”   That person is lost to the mists of time (might not even be Bach), and so now the motif has become, for me, “scenes a faire,” a copyright term of art for stock scenes or plot devices in plays or novels, but which I have adopted for standard devices used in composing music.  These are not “building blocks” in the sense of notes and chords, but a more complex composing “design tool.”

Similarity between two songs does not necessarily mean stealing.   Hearing a cool riff somewhere – what you called "sound design" – and putting a similar thing into your own song, or simply coming up with something that sounds cool on your own, once again does not mean that the first one to use it “owns” it.   The fact that the two songs use a similar musical device does not establish that it is the intellectual property of one that was misappropriated by the other.

Maybe I need to write a song called “The Riff Song.”   I’ll put lots of disconnected musical phrases in it, and copyright the thing.   Then, when any other song uses one of “my” riffs, I’ll sue the pants off of them.   I’ll start with the C-Major scale:   if I hear more than five consecutive notes in your song, I’ll sue you because I now own the C-Major scale.   Etcetera.
Daugrin
Forum Full Member


Registered: 03/24/09
Posts: 1204
Location: , Extraverse
 
Re:Katy Perry cries real money
Tuesday, August 06 2019 @ 09:55 PM CDT



So, everyone is a thief? This video may or may not clear up the copy write issues. It does examine interesting perspectives.

Allow an observation?
"The Greatest Guitarist in the the World" (GGITW) is a good saw.
When the greatest guitarist in pop music was Les Paul, and few people could see him play live, it was difficult to figure out exactly what the ruckus was about, few people copied Pauls playing because few saw him perform. People stole off his records and bought his gear like crazy.

Duane Allman learned to play slide off a record. Allman took licks right off records one at a time stopping the recording on single riffs and listening until he could figure them out piece at a time. Allow me to suggest this requires a lot of determination and substances like alcohol.

When Roy Buchanan was the GGITW, (did not know that one did ya?), he famously more often than not played with his back to the audience to protect his draw as a session player. He did not want players in the audience to see the techniques he was using, and not until Jeff Beck blew the cover off Roy's stuff on his 1975 record "Blow By Blow", did Buchanan loose the GGITW crown, he became something else...

As a matter of fact, seeing a guitar player live is, with few exceptions, the end of that reign as GGITW. If we see your hands your reign is over. Garcia, Zappa, his accomplis Steve Via, Danny Gatton and Hendrix are exceptions?

Allow me to make the Hendrix case.
Hendrix post Woodstock and Isle of White films is not as nearly as impossible to fathom as the Band of Gypsys record made him appear at the time it was released. If you don't understand this comment consider that few people in America had ever seen a Hendrix gig. Hendrix broke in England. Hard to really see the hands at a huge outdoor event. Hendrix reached his US fame at live outdoor programs.
No film of the New Years Eve shows that became Band of Gypsys were made available until years after Hendrix death. Most of the modern guitar technique invented by Hendrix, we all take this for granted today, was demonstrated during these two shows, Hendrix reinvented the instrument live in front of people who had no little idea how it was done and the Filmore was not a huge venue.
Don't believe every guitar player in New York was at those gigs? Steve Stills bravely shared his recollections of those shows. He was overwhelmed.

Today there are machines that slow down the records and highlight phrases, and there is a video by a university educated player explaining what the performer is doing on the record. There is film of bands playing live which show what the hands are doing at the important points. Big guitar is no longer a part of what makes popular music interesting.

Is too much stealing going on? Or has this always been the deal, with rare exception? Hendrix stole stuff folks, it is easy to demonstrate where he got lots of his material. He also invented, and he famously reinvented popular guitar driven music in a single evening with the Band of Gypsys. Still, if you can see his hands, Hendrix can be covered, if one has determination and certain substances.

Daug
 
MikeRobinson
Forum Full Member


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 972
Location: Chattanooga, TN United States
 
Re:Katy Perry cries real money
Monday, August 12 2019 @ 08:03 PM CDT

"Music" is a very, very old tradition, and there is of course a vast library of public-domain musical compositions – many hundreds of years old – which have always been "fair game" for composers. It has correctly been observed that John Williams' iconic Star Wars suite has unmistakable throwbacks to prior historic works. But, instead of being "criminal," it is simply "inevitable." There are only so many ways in which one can arrange twelve notes. Williams did exactly what all of his predecessors had done: he (maybe) started where they'd ended, but in any case he fashioned (from it) something that he will now be remembered for. As composers have been doing for many centuries.